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Vandy Grift
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I played Poker last Saturday night with four other guys. All I'm gonna say about "moving under fire" and all that stuff is this;

While it's very important to work on you moves and techniques. And I do that. If you want to steal money at the card table, there are PLENTY of games in which you could do what ever you want. It's much like when magicans say "don't worry about it, laypeople never notice". Many, many card players don't know their ass from their elbow. If you want to steal their money you can steal it. And you don't have to deal invisible seconds or any of that crap.

You would not have believed the things I saw and the things I did in this game. Every one of these other players has been playing cards for 25 years. These are not guys who just picked it up because of all the Texas trash on TV. But they play with the same people most of the time. They haven't broadened their horizons. They get AWFULLY cozy.

Get the money? I could have gotten ALL the money if I wanted to. And it has LITTLE or NOTHING to do with moves.

So if you want to steal money, go steal money. Don't look at someones cards moves and say something stupid like "That would never get the money" unless you know exactly what type of game they are playing in. Getting the money has much more to do with the game in which you play than how well you move. If you eventually want to steal from the very best, in the best games,then you will have to be flawless. But there is so much sugar laying out there on basement cards tables that you don't have to know a center deal from a center cut pork chop to take it.

Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
cinemagician
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Agreed, while have not played in a "friendly" game in some time, I seem to never win the argument about basic strategy with blackjack players. In the casino I am so tired of being yelled at by surrendering when I supposed to, or the old, "you should have hit it, sacrifice one for the table" line. Once people ahve formed their oppinions they just do not want to listen a deserve to loose their money.
...The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity...

William Butler Yeats
card cheat
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Right on!

Money is money is money... and ego is ego is ego.

A card cheat only wants the money. A cardman wants perfect moves.

Try taking perfect moves to the bank....

I am not saying that I don't like to see an expertly executed second deal; and I am not saying that I haven't enjoyed countless hours of practice. I do love beautiful sleight of hand, and I find the hours that I spend with a deck of cards to be something very valuable to me.

Not as valuable as money, though.

It never ceases to amaze me that so many cardplayers invest so much money into their "game" and never bother to educate themselves as to the myriad of ways that they can get ripped off.

It also never ceases to please me.

Great post, Vandy. Next time, take the money. ALL of it....

CC
card cheat
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Cinemagician,

For the record, I believe that Vandy was talking about blatant cheating at cards. Card counting certainly does not fall into this category.

CC
Vandy Grift
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Yes CC is right. I wasn't talking about "advantage" play. That's one thing. I'm talking about straight out cheating by manipulating the cards or the amount of money I threw into the pot.

Running up hands? I could have done it on every one of my deals(with overhand shuffles if I wanted to). Splashing/shorting the pot? I could have done that every time I threw in. Ringing in a cold deck? I could have rung in a cold deck on every one of my deals. Shifting the cut? With the easiest methods possible. I played around with the discards all night. The guy next to me kept showing me his cards when I was out of the hand. Can you imagine that? No one cared, and he didn't seem to care that he was giving me insight into how he played certain hands. It was ridiculous.

I'm no expert at card moves. I am an intermediate card handler, an amateur magican, and a guy who likes to play cards. That would have been PLENTY at this game. And I've played in dozens of others like it.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
tommy
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"Many, many card players don't know their ass from their elbow."

True!

Even those who play for very high stakes - I have found - I have said that for ages. You would think they would but they don't. Go get em Vandy!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Vandy Grift
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It's shocking but true. I mean I've seen some things, but the things I saw Saturday night literally made my jaw drop in a few instances.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
sodman12
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Is this new news? ive known this for years!
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
Mr. Z
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I don't think "stealing" beer money in some backyard BBQ game with your bowling league constitutes "moving under fire," no offense.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
Vandy Grift
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None taken. As for beer money, I know plenty of guys that have a lot more money than brains and aren't afraid to gamble it.

We aren't playing for 10's of thousands. But it's not "beer money" either. This must come as a surprise to you based on your comments, but, there is ALOT of money changing hands every night in private homes. Obviously more than you can imagine, if you think every private game is played for "beer money" around the backyard BBQ. Or are you just assuming that I only play penny ante?

Why do you put stealing in quotes?

Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-04-24 17:14, Vandy Grift wrote:
None taken. As for beer money, I know plenty of guys that have a lot more money than brains and aren't afraid to gamble it.

We aren't playing for 10's of thousands. But it's not "beer money" either. This must come as a surprise to you based on your comments, but, there is ALOT of money changing hands every night in private homes. Obviously more than you can imagine, if you think every private game is played for "beer money" around the backyard BBQ. Or are you just assuming that I only play penny ante?

Why do you put stealing in quotes?

Vandy


If the company's that loose and the pots don't reach 4 figures I don't see what the big fuss is. I'm sure you could openly arrange the cards and no one would have a clue. Again, not something to brag about, in my view.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
Slim Price
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I may be old, but I think stealing is objectional! Whether it's from a shopping cart, a card table or anywhere. Are these the same people who babble about ethics from magic dealers and copping tricks? Shame, shame, shame...
sanscan
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"I will never bitter be, as long as I can laugh at me!"



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tommy
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No it's not the same. It's cheating at the card table and not like anything on earth. I love it! Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
J Wessmiller
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Darwin Ortiz once made a very interesting metaphor:

What does it matter if you've moved? If you do the moves well, then you're good. Do people go up to expert marksmen and tell them they aren't good because they've never shot someone?

be well,
JW
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Slim Price
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Thank God we are different... Stealing is stealing no matter how you cover or re-name it.
sanscan@tds.net



"I will never bitter be, as long as I can laugh at me!"



"The people who were dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music"
silverking
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In a forum called "The Gambling Spot" trying to teach right from wrong as it relates to stealing is difficult to say the least.

Cheating and stealing has been as closely tied with gambling since gambling began, so in this forum, we talk about it without judging.
tommy
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Quote:
On 2006-04-24 23:13, J Wessmiller wrote:
Darwin Ortiz once made a very interesting metaphor:

What does it matter if you've moved? If you do the moves well, then you're good. Do people go up to expert marksmen and tell them they aren't good because they've never shot someone?

be well,
JW



Ortiz should know better.

"Proficiency in target practice is not the sole qualification of the trap shooter. Many experts with the gun who can nonchalantly ring up the bull's eye in a shooting gallery could not hit the side of a barn in a duel. The greater the emergency, or the greater the stakes, the greater the nerve required."

-Erdnase-
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
tommy
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Quote:
On 2006-04-24 23:46, sanscan wrote:
Thank God we are different... Stealing is stealing no matter how you cover or re-name it.


Slim

When you worked in a gambling supply house making crooked dice what did think you were doing? An honest days work?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
J Wessmiller
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Wow tommy, great point! I should've caught that one.
be well,
JW
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Vandy Grift
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I don't remember saying I ever stole anything. Or even bragging about anything.

I told you the conditions of the game I found myself in. Extremely cozy. I also said what I know I could have done in that game. AT NO TIME did I say I stole any money.

Vandy

We can't all be heavy hitters like Mr Z. Taking down $100,000 pots with flawless card technique and moves that are invisible even to the TRAINED eye. My point is that if you want to line you pockets quite nicely, with very little work, it's available to you. Go get it, or sit around and poo-poo it. If you don't want the money. Don't take the money. Believe me, to some folks, winning a measly four or five hundred bucks in a few hours is not a bad thing at all.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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