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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
Jim:
Letting it go, or joining the movement. <G> ------------------------------------------- It never fails to amaze me that a group of performers, people who lie and trick for entertainment can have such a moral high-ground and feel so superior to others and their beliefs. And are so strong in their convictions that they form groups and attack these "others." Their rationale, those people are frauds, their tricksters, they are getting money for false services... I've seen some of these performers' acts, the "others" are not the only one's who may fit that description. In my country, discrimination based on a person's beliefs is against the law. Please remember, in your attempts to "educate" and "enlighten" you are ridiculing and denigrating others. If you feel that something is wrong, go fill out a police report. Its the government's job to investigate crime. Not a magicians. Now, I'll get off my soap box and go back to playing with my sponge bunnies. My thoughts anyway Tony |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
When medical fraud takes place, Doctors often are the ones to blow the whistle.
- entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
Medical fraud, and doctors, watching over their own. It makes sense. Especially since the law requires that they report such.
But we are not discussing doctors or medicine, we are talking spiritual paths, belief systems, and magicians. No comparison! Knowing a dozen ways to find a card or produce a rabbit from a hat does not qualify you to pass judgment on another's belief system. Kind or arrogant to even suggest that, never mind try to draw such a comparison. If you did not intend this, and throwing out the Doctor reference was just a bit of humourous nonsense, I apologize for misunderstanding it. Once again, just my thoughts. Tony |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
Quote:
Nope, I sure haven't. As I said, I don't care what Browne believes. That's her business. But if she is charging money for a service and affecting other people's lives, that's a different story. I challenge you to find a quote where I call someone a fraud based only on their beliefs. Quote:
On 2006-05-07 22:04, TonyEye wrote: Tony: Was this addressed to me? I haven't formed any groups or attacked anyone (if you believe I have attacked someone, please quote me. I don't think I've done that.) I am very much against discriminating against people based on their beliefs. I assume you are not accusing me of that. If you are, please show me where I've done that. Again, I couldn't care less what Browne believes. What have I said that ridiculed anyone? Tony, Jim, et al: if someone claims that they can talk to the dead, and they charge money for it, but actually can't talk to the dead, would you call that fraud? -Jim |
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
Jim:
No, it was put out as a general statement. As for your question; every Sunday, we call it collection. As to whether they can talk to the dead, one day we will either know, or not. Until then, it is faith. Tony |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
Tony:
Sorry, I mistakenly thought you were addressing me. Quote:
In my country, discrimination based on a person's beliefs is against the law. If anyone has done the above on this thread or others here, could you please point me to the post? Quote:
If you feel that something is wrong, go fill out a police report. Its the government's job to investigate crime. Not a magicians. Maybe we could talk about some of these issues on the ethics forum here. I think discussion forums are good places to exchange opinions and views. Tony, are you equating what Browne does with church services, or have I misunderstood your above post? -Jim |
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Slim King Eternal Order Orlando 18030 Posts |
As I've said before......"I talk to the dead!"
" They just don't talk back."..........Yet! Faith, Sylvia Brown, Mr Johnathan Edward, (Not his whole name), Billy Graham....It's very confusing where exactly to draw a line. If I shouls at all. But then again.....Houdini took a shot at those that he thought were fakers (fakirs).....
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
Jim:
No, you have not misunderstood. Many in the Spiritualist Church see her and John Edwards and several others on television, in much the same light as Benny Hin and Billy Graham are seen by Christians. Evangalists of a faith. I said what I did in the way I did so as not to point fingers. Reread the posts made here and you will see insults towards her and her belief system made in this thread. The topic does not belong on this type of forum. This is a magic forum, not a spirituality discussion forum. My opening statement read: "It never fails to amaze me that a group of performers, people who lie and trick for entertainment can have such a moral high-ground and feel so superior to others and thier beliefs." Your continuation along these lines confirms my position. Slim: Good points, and Houdini's dead. Maybe someone should ask Ms. Browne how he feels now? Tony |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
Quote:
The topic does not belong on this type of forum. This is a magic forum, not a spirituality discussion forum. Browne calls herself a psychic on her official web site (where she lists her price for phone sessions at $700). This forum is called "Penny for your Thoughts". Are psychics off topic here? But maybe this discussion belongs to the ethics forum at the Café? To anyone/everyone: if someone very close to you, who you care a lot for, was seriously in need of help (counseling, spiritual guidance, life advice) would you recommend they spend $700 on a call to Browne? Is there anyone here who thinks it's likely that she can truly talk to dead people? -Jim |
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
Jim:
I answered you in a PM. No, it does not belong here, just as discussions of faith and religion do not belong in the Good News forum. We are here to discuss entertainment, not belief systems. BTW: How much do you think Dr. Phil charges for a private session? Can you Google that? People are paying for a service, but they are willing to pay more for celebrity. I can hire a magician to entertain at my child's party for $150, should Copperfield do it for the same money? If not, why not? Tony |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
So no one should discuss psychics here? That would be a major change, as psychic are a common topic here.
I think Dr. Phil probably charges a ton for a private session. Probably a lot more than he is worth, in my humble opinion. I would prefer to go to a non-celebrity psychologist, recommended by a friend or colleague. But as far as I know, Dr. Phil doesn't claim to have the ability of communicating with the dead, or being psychic. I believe that psychologists, doctors, psychics, and anyone else charging money for a service should not make untrue claims about what they do. I don't have double standards inthat regard. I think Browne and Copperfield and a local unknown magician should charge whatever they want. But in my opinion $700 for a phone call to Browne is quite exorbitant. For someone who needs real help, there are far cheaper, far more effective ways to get help. |
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Slim King Eternal Order Orlando 18030 Posts |
TonyEye
You made me laugh out loud...and it's almost one thirty AM here in Daytona.( My girlfriend is sleeping)....or was. What IS Houdini doing?
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
I think he is still working on that coffin escape. One of these days though...
Here's a funny Houdini story for you: It is not well known, but Houdini would get violently seasick. Bess had to have him tied to the bed everytime they made a transAtlantic voyage. My question is, why? He was an escape artist. What good would that do? Tony -off to bed. |
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kinesis Inner circle Scotland, surrounded by 2708 Posts |
Darn, I've tried so hard just to lurk around this thread. Here's my two cents (for what its worth) I'm an ex (born-again) Christian. I gave up my faith through lack of evidence (it's a long story). My simple thought is this, IF some members of our human race could truly communicate with the dead and have psychic powers, it would change the way the world worked. People would consult with the late great scientists of the world and complete unfinished theories. Musicians would complete the works of the masters of old. Crime wouldn't be worth the risk. Why then is it that we find some of the greatest mediums (like Sylva Browne) giving the same old tired performance week-in, week-out on shows like Montel. Why is she giving vague statements to desperate people over the phone for $700. Why, when the world could benefit so much with so many issues (terrorists, natural disasters, serious crime) do we hear about what's going to happen to the latest hollywood celeb. My belief is that quite simply it's because it's not real. Howerver, we are human, we have a built-in need for a reason for life and have developed many belief systems to provide just that. Just as Christians hold onto theirs, the 'Sylvia Browns' will refuse to let go of theirs also. I'm not saying Christians are wrong, goodness knows Christianity has shaped the world in many ways. I'm simply using that to compare to the extent that people that believe in Sylvia's powers will hold onto that belief. Houdini lived his life trying to educate the masses about fraudulent mediums, sadly with little impact. I very much doubt if any or all of us could achieve any more than Houdini. However as magicians who can recognise a fraud at 200 yards I think it is our duty to educate those we feel may be in danger of being abused by it. Just as Sylvia feels she has the right to tell the world about a deceased mans infidelity because she believes she has that message from the dead I think we too have the right to offer a different opinion to anyone that will listen.
That's it, back to lurking. Derek |
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Bill Cushman Inner circle Florida 2876 Posts |
These threads tend to have the same affect as a car accident. You don't want to, but it is hard not to slow down and look.
Tony, you have great posts that I always look forward to reading, as well as a good take on what it is all about, but you are being very sneaky here! You write: "It never fails to amaze me that a group of performers, people who lie and trick for entertainment can have such a moral high-ground and feel so superior to others and their beliefs. Your continuation along these lines confirms my position." Ahem, so there is no way to respond to you with out confirming your position all the more! As I said, pretty sneaky and if not intentional it represents a mindset that makes it pretty hard to taken in any other information on the subject . Also, you a priori assume a motivation of feeling superior to others and their beliefs, the moral high ground you mentioned, as the reason for objecting to practices such as those of Sylvia. That's a bit discriminatory, don't you think? Not that such motivation doesn't exist, but lumping everyone in the same category is one of the roots of discrimination. You say later: "In my country, discrimination based on a person's beliefs is against the law." Better check those law books again (egad, you're an attorney aren't you?). Discrimination based on a person's beliefs is only against the law in specific situations such as employment, housing, etc and are of relatively recent origin, not to mention the abundance of loopholes still on and off the books. Nowhere I can think of does the law prohibit me from discriminating against you because of your beliefs if it isn't in these specific areas. If I think your beliefs are reprehensible, the law protects my right to say so, not associate with you and even protest them within certain limits. Also, laws that themselves discriminate against beliefs are pretty standard. Try being gay and getting married or adopting an adolescent child that you've fostered since infancy in the state of Florida. Don't even get me started on the history of laws designed to discriminate against gender and race. Though now off the books, their legacy is not something that makes me proud of my country. And I just realized you set up a straw man argument, you sneaky guy you! This thread is not even about laws against discrimination based on a person's beliefs. But I'll indulge your scarecrow nonetheless. Also, lets be real and acknowledge that we all discriminate based on our beliefs. Some of us are just more blatant about it. Far better we should admit to this very human tendency so we can minimize the fallout than pretend we are above it. The next comment that caught my eye: "Medical fraud, and doctors, watching over their own. It makes sense. Especially since the law requires that they report such. But we are not discussing doctors or medicine; we are talking spiritual paths, belief systems, and magicians. No comparison! Knowing a dozen ways to find a card or produce a rabbit from a hat does not qualify you to pass judgment on another's belief system. Kind or arrogant to even suggest that, never mind try to draw such a comparison." I think it is kind of arrogant, not to mention ill-informed, to exclude those on spiritual paths and with belief systems from the realm of watching over their own, even if they are, dare I say it, magicians. How different things would be if the higher echelon of the church had done a better job of policing their own when it comes to the rape of children. Not to deny or minimize the importance of the goodwill of many within the church, but it took intense pressure from the outside to even begin to make any changes. It isn't one's skills as a magician that qualifies any of us to challenge a belief system. It is our own humanity, our own spirituality, which qualifies us to do so. We may get a bit riled up and off track about the whole thing due to certain knowledge we are privy to, but that doesn't deny any of us the same right as anyone else. Like the church, the self-policing of professions such as medicine and law resulted from a combination of victims of unscrupulous practitioners speaking up, outside advocates and people of conscience within these professions not buying into the still existing philosophy of "protecting our own." Personally, I have no problem with discriminating against certain beliefs. Any members of NAMBLA here? If so, I think your beliefs are disgusting. I'd prefer you stay away from the rest of us. I have no problems or conflicts stating that outright. I sure wish someone had discriminated against the spiritual beliefs of Jim Jones and Charles Manson, just to make another point. Which reminds me; methods similar to those employed by Sylvia were used in both these instances. I think that is pretty telling. You might also want to check out a thread here on James Hydrick, another person who purported to have certain supernatural powers. He eventually, thanks to the efforts of folks including to a large part MAGICIAN Danny Korem, publicly admitted his fraud. His acknowledged motivation is also interesting; he wanted to fool people and show them how stupid they were as revenge for being labeled stupid as a child. Korem and Randi, to both their credit, were able to see the deeper connection of Hydrick's abuse as a child and the frauds he committed and ultimately approach the situation with compassion. So back to Sylvia. Yeah, like the police are going to do anything about her. Give me a break. Rush just basically walked on charges that would have likely led to imprisonment for a less famous (and wealthy) person and does lead to the imprisonment of certain socio-economic classes on a daily basis. Talk about discrimination. And, no, I don't feel Rush should have been imprisoned. But the law allows for it and often does enforce this punishment. Unless Sylvia starts pulling Gypsy Switches, she's found a nice little niche to legally make a lot of money out of preying on vulnerabilities DUE to people's spiritual beliefs. I'd have to say that dumping on Sylvia is not discriminating against anyone's spiritual beliefs but protecting them. A person of spirituality has the same right to know they are being defrauded as anyone else. Will attempting to take action change anything? Unlikely. Will it just make Sylvia more famous and rich? Probably. So after all this kvetching I have no viable solution to offer. Sorry about that; I don't usually like to start analyzing a problem if I can't offer a solution. It just pizzes me off when someone compares going after the likes of Sylvia to discriminating against protected spiritual beliefs. Bill P.S. A tidbit about Dr. Phil since his name came up. He began his practice as a clinical psychologist in 1979 and quit after ten years because he "didn't have the patience for it." “It” being therapy with people. He then co founded Courtroom Sciences, a company using psychologists and their research to help lawyers in trial selection. After Oprah offended the cattle industry and was fighting a suit in a Texas court, she hired Courtroom Sciences, won her case and hit it off Dr. Phil. As they say, a star was born. As to what he charges for a private session he doesn't charge a thing; he doesn't have the "patience for it." |
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Silvert0ne Regular user 117 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-05-08 09:13, kinesis wrote: Derek, I've just read through this thread and you have written EXACTLY what I was thinking and how I've felt for a long time now - the world would be a totally different place if paranormal powers were available. You know, my family is from Scotland, perhaps we have some spiritual connection...oh wait...nevermind. |
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