In another recent post daddyof2 wrote: "After learning the back clip from Paul Cummins video "up in smoke", I will never go back to goshman pinch".
I have been working on the Paul Cummins Back Clip for a few weeks now and, although I can do it, I feel that I will have to spend much more time on it to really feel confident.
The post from dadyof2 made me reflect on what I am learning and it seems to me that the Back Clip doesn't have any real advantage (for me at least) over the Tenkai/Goshman Pinch, and the latter seems that much easier.
Perhaps someone can enlighten me: am I missing something? I don't want to give up too easily, but on the other hand....etc..etc.
Bob

To me, the back clip is just easier to get in and out of than the Tenkai pinch, and the hand looks way more natural when concealing the coin. The pinch may be easier to acquire, but I feel that the back clip is well worth the effort.

My technique for the tenklai Pinch the coin lays flat against the fingers and the hand almost looks natural.... with no tell tail sign of the coin showing threw the fingers....
both slights have there advantages and dis advantages but I still like the goshman pinch better..

vinny

Funny, I have exactly the opposite experience from Rob Elliott. The Tenkai/Goshman "pinch" is much easier for me to do, and is easily concealed. In fact, because of the way it's held, the hand can assume a very relaxed look, fingers curling and spread if you are aware of the angles. the back clip is much more rigid a control to me....

Best, PSC

Ditto....

Personally, I have less chance flashing a coin retrieved from Tenkai/Goshman Pinch than from Deep Back Clip. And that's even with the retrieval method described by Mr. Cummings on his video. I've also had a lot better experience performing the Tenkai Goshman Pinch for multiple spectators. I'd only use Deep Back Clip if I was performing for a handful of people.

Comparing the clips strictly from a concealment and angle point of view; they both offer equal degrees of concealment and similar angle constraints. Keep in mind, we are not comparing Tenkai with Deep Back Clip. The Clip that Paul Cummins uses is held by the same fingers (2nd and 3rd) but up at the 2nd phalanges. The Deep Back clip is held by the first phalanges, and it is a more difficult concealment to retrieve from.

For a single coin concealment, either clip does the job well enough. Use whatever you are most comfortable with.

Technique wise for all intents and purposes getting into the clips are relatively the same. You just end up with different fingers clipping the coin.

Personally I feel the recovery from back clip is less apt to flash during a quick retrieval since you retrieve by using the 4th finger to nip the edge of the back clipped coin to pull it back against the fingers. You have all the cover of the front three fingers as your hand is turning inward into a fist.

To retrieve similarly from the Tenkai pinch you would have to reach your 2nd finger over to the coin held between the 3rd and 4th fingers. This splits your fingers open right in the middle which can expose the hidden coin much easier then the 4th finger reaching over as in the back clip. That is why the typical retrieval from Tenkai is usually done by after the hand has completely closed into a fist by using the thumb.

Still, the retrieval mechanics are up to personal preference, I still contend the concealments are relatively interchangeable with one coin.

Where the back clip gains a decided advantage in my mind is when you introduce other coins to the mix.

The back clip is much easier to conceal two coins in and retrieve one at a time.

Additionally, because the 4th finger is the retrieval finger, it enables the thumb and index finger to hold another coin as your hand turns over as to place the other coin into the opposite hand. So you don’t need to toss coins from hand to hand, you can slowly turn coins over, and place them in your opposite hand all the while transitioning in and out of back clip.

As an example, HERE is a demonstration video clip I created years ago highlighting some of the technique available with the back clip with multiple coins. I have never tried, but I would think this sequence would be extremely difficult to perform with the Tenkai Pinch.

I find the Tenkai pinch much quicker to get into than back clip. So for example for the first move in 'Underhanded coins across' I'll do a Benzais friction pass and immediately put the remaining coin into TP and turn it palm up. I can't do the backclip that fast, as I have thin fingers
and have to do 3 distinct movements for the baccklip to work- an initial slide, then a movement of the pinkie to adjust the coin, then moving 2nd and 3rd fingers against each other to prevent flashing.
However for the remaining parts of the routine I use backclip as the hand looks much more natural and it is hard to so Tenkai pinch when you have 2 or 3 coins inside the hand.ALso as you are known to have a few coins in the RH you can get away with a bit of readjusting your fingers more than if you're just holding one coin.
Having said that I do find the back clip easier to get OUT of - after a lot of practice I can just about flick the coin directly into CP with my ring finger as I
turn the hand palm down, I find this more effective than the 'knuckle pop' method described on the tape.
If you prefer the Tenkai pinch there is excellent stuff on Jay SAnkey's RCM DVD ,
especially 'Mr CLean coins across' and 'Bulletproof coins across'

I've never used the backclip, and I had always been frustrated by the goshman until Vinny showed me a little trick to make it easier. Now I can get in and out of goshman pretty fast. I'll have to work on the backclip to see which I prefer.

-Corey

Although I've only recently started working with the DBC, bot the cummins clip, I prefer it in some ways to the GP. Although I was reaasonably good at the GP, I prefer the way the hand looks in DBC, much more relaxed. What I'm working on is getting into DBC quickly, but that's what was hard about GP!
Rik

Unless you are equally good with both, I would suggest that you do whatever you feel more comfortable useing because you wiil look more natural with it. Of course aquire both skills if you can, but the important thing, as Dai Vernon said is to "be natural" with whatever technique you use, pinch or backclip.

Is it possible to exchange the clip Cummins uses/teaches for the Tenkai pinch in order to perform the tricks on the Up in Smoke DVD?

Jim

Yes to a large extent but the secret retrieval into CP that is frequently used is easier from BC than from GP.

Great thanks!

Jim

Jim, also in Underhanded Coins Across, he does a one at a time retrieval from two coins in back clip, which is much easier than trying to do that out of Tenkai Pinch.

Loved your "Coin Man Walking" DVD, Dan. And based on the fact that I have seen you perform (on DVD), I say there is no wonder you participate in this thread. I was kind of expecting it.

However:
It looks like I have to buy "Up in Smoke" and just realize that knowing sleights that are almost the same (but still kinda different) isn't that bad after all.....

Jim

Tenkai/Goshman is easiest for me to do, I enter it much like doing a back palm with a card. Depending on the size of the coin I have more difficulty entering with larger coins (half and dollar) the back clip, but find that both moves are useful depending on where my hand position is and what I am needing to set up. Both are pretty simiar moves. I tend to use the back clip when upper hand manipulation of the coin back, to what ever my next move is, is necessary. I use the Tenkai/Goshman when I need to show my palm flat open and need to hold the coin for a bit, expecially the larger coins. If the next move with the coin isn't really feasible for lower hand or whole hand movement, I use the Back clip. Pretty much just individual preference depending on ur hands.

I use goshman or tenkai rarely, I always use back clip. After watching paul cummins video, I had to learn it. After playing with it forever, it is so quick and easy for me, and looks a whole lot better. Although angles aren't as good as with the goshman pinch because in back clip the coin is vertical, not laying on an angle like in goshman.

My absolute favorite coin routine is "underhanded coins across" in paul cummins video. It is incredible. And when you practice and can back clip 2 coins at a time and retrieve one at a time, man, you just can get any better looking than that! The getting into and the retrieval are second nature to me now and I can't imagine not using this move everytime I pick up coins. It just "feels" good I guess lol.

But like everybody says, practice both and choose which one YOU like the best.

Bob,
As someone who uses Deep Back Clip, Paul's back clip, and both methods for getting into and out of Tenkai back clip I can tell you that when you can do them, no one of them is any easier or harder than the others. None of these methods are "natural" actions (as say finger palming is) so you simply have to put in the time to develop the odd muscle memory required by each method and strengthen your fingers.

Tenkai back clip is very easy to get into it fast, but the various deep back clips (and Paul’s) allow for better displays, because the hand is completely flat.

I wouldn’t give up on any of them.

Thanks for all the advice and comments: it makes this site really great.
I will keep up with the Cummins Back Clip practice (I believe that all sleight practice is good, even if you won't use it immediately), but since my hands have slight (no pun intended) windows, the Tenkai/Goshman feels much more secure, so I will probably go with it for one coin in the short term.

After more than half a year of pacticing Paul´s back clip I finaly and sadly must admit that the BC is not for me. My hands haven´t the physical conditions required for that particular sleith ( to much bones, to much windows) tenkai pinch is very easy to get in but dificult to retrieve,I haven´t developped a retriving technique yet. tenkai has better angles , but to open and close your hand with the coin hidden the angles are better with BC.