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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Soft or Regular? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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paisa23
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Scream Fly! Finally got it in and am trying to learn it. My issue is that I heard that there is rumor that 3 Fly Routines should only be don with Silver Dollars. I am using a Kennedy Shell Set and they are not soft. I want your advice, should I go out and get a Silver Dollar Shell set? And should it be regular or Soft? I should tell you guys that I really never had the chance to work with Soft coins. Any Advice would be great.
Sean W. Burke
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Forgive my ignorance, is Scream Fly a particular 3 fly routine? Unfamiliar with it.
Sean W. Burke
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As far as your initial question I think that all depends on your venue. Silver dollars are definitley much more visible, however in a closeup situation I think half dollars are just as effective and allow easier concealment. I personally prefer half dollars because of other effects using them and not having to switch out coins.
Eric Falconer
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Scream Fly is just one of the many iterations of the Visual Coins Across routine. Scream Fly is on Reed McClintocks "Coin Ovations" if memory serves me right.
Personally I think Soft Silver dollars is the way to go.
First, when they slide they make no noise.
Second, they are bigger and can be seen easier by many more people even in close up.
Third, since they are bigger people assume you couldn't hide one in FP or CP.

As for switching out the coins for other effects... There is no need. Folding, flipper, C/S, Hopping Half, Chinatown half, ramsey stack, Expanded ] with set all exist in soft silver dollars.

About a year ago I made the commitment and went all soft silver dollars. Now all my coins are nice, big, shiny, and consistent. With proper routine management "real" coins can even be handed out.

These coins are IMHO far superior to using halves.

As to people thinking the coins aren't common. Well neither are halves. If you are going to do a borrowed coin routine... neither dollars or halves are for you. But if you are going to use your own props why not use the best.
With Silver dollars you have so many explanations i.e. These coins belonged to my grandfather.... I'm a coin collector... whatever... There's a nostalgia that comes with very old coins. Halves don't have that nostalgia IMO.

So in answer to your question. Yes get a Soft Silver dollar ExShell set! And don't look back.

Occasionally I pick up a half and it seems so small in my hand.
Eric Falconer

Houston TX
KirkG
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I use different sized coins depending on the routine for maximum impact. So should you. You will find that Silver Dollar sized coins will make most 3 fly routines easier and more convincing just of their own accord. It is worth it. Don't give up on halves for other routines. Don't be married to them as well. Explore and have fun.

Later, when you are hooked, you may want to upgrade to a really nice set of soft dollars with re-milled edges and you will have developed the abilty to appreciate the difference. Right now, run of the mill "slicks" from your local coin dealer will serve you just fine. And you can keep these in your pocket all day and everyday for stealing moments of practice.

Have fun.
Daegs
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Or rather than re-milling, just take some 1921's and soften/age them...

I think 3 fly should only be used as a standup routine(close handed is better for closeup).

So since you should only be doing it in a standup environment, visibility is a big issue so I think silver dollars are best if you are doing a straight VCA.

Soft will help with the scraping sounds.... specifically for VCA/3fly I don't think they provide much more benifit than the sound/sliding issue, though if you havent used soft coins before you should get your hands on some barbers they open up WHOLE new worlds.
paisa23
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Well this last year I committed to a nice Kennedy half Set(NOT SOFT) from Jamie, after watching Coinvention DVD. I also went and got the Flipper, I am happy with them but now I'm thinking of committing again with the Silver Dollars. just not sure if it will suit me for other then just that routine. Also the set that I have does come with a [ but I am not sure if it is an expanded [. How can I tell?

Again I guess the only reason why I am contemplating about the soft no soft or half and dollar is because I have never worked with soft coins. I am also considering getting his C/S/B set in a Half. I am becoming a big fan of him.

I hope I am making sense here.
Jaz
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The expanded [ will fit over a normal size coin.

I suggest soft for those Fly routines. They're quieter. If the milling is badly worn the handling can be a bit slippy.

You've already invested a lot of $ in halves.
Got a lot more $$$ then go for the dollars.
Your choice.
onebark
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Well, one man's trash is another man's treasure. I don't use Silver dollars for the strict reason that they are too large in proportion to my hands. Any benefits from one man's Silver Dollar is a severe hidrance to me. So halves it is.
paisa23
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That's another thing, I don't have the biggest hands. I know I know, 27 yrs old.
KirkG
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My hands are considered small by most men. I use silver dollars, for some routines, fine. I do some magic session with magicians and they all say, gee I wish my hands were as big as yours. When we compare, theirs are bigger. It is not the size that matters. (Fill in favorite meat or ocean joke here), but learning and using the correct technique and practicing, a lot.
Jonathan Townsend
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Use whatever props are appropriate to your venue to make sure the audience can see the magic.

I use quarters in tight proximity, half crowns at the table and would use something else for a parlor venue.

As to soft coins... hey if you are working on the Ramsay routines... use em. Bob Kohler did a good job making the trick work without needing soft coins. There's not a lot of sliding going on in the trick so it's really up to you.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
paisa23
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Thank you guys for all your help. This is what makes this place great.
info2victor
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I agree that it is a concern of the visualness of the coins. And in this aspect dollar is better than halves because of their size. I personally don't agree with "3-fly is only good when it is done with dollars". Part of the reason is it depends the audience size.

To me the major concern is still my hands. My hands are small so when working with large coins (dollar is large for me) I simply just can't do most of the sleights. Not to mention they are really thick and heavy. I'd suggest you try to see if you feel comfortable with dollars first.

Somehow I'll also try to make my props consistent. And I'd want to make full use of my sets, say I don't just use half [ sets for Scream Fly, I'll use them for some Coin Assembly effects as well. (Actually ALL the effects I'm currently working with use halves =) ) And in such cases halves are perfect for me.

As for soft coins, I guess the main use is to hide the sliding sound. If you decid to "renew" your set, it might be a good idea to have a set of old coins (say Barber), as they are already worn down to soft condition anyway...
It only takes a minute to learn how it is done, but takes a lifetime to learn how to do it.

You've got a coin?
KirkG
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I don't support the "3-fly is only good when it is done with dollars" camp either. However, I do feel that no matter what the distance, dollars will work. And I support that the trick is easier on the magician and the audience and more enjoyable when done with dollars. I don't think you will be "comfortable" when you "try" dollars. I think you WILL BE comfortable once you have practiced.

Unless you are impaired or significantly tiny in hand size, you will be able to do enough of the sleights that are out there to perform a 3fly. Heck you will be MORE able to do some other sleights, like back palm.

Resisitance is usless, you will be assimilated. Smile
paisa23
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OK I'm looking at Jamie's Site I have come to the decision to get me a Silver Dollar Set, and a C/S/B Set. Then I think I will have a nice collection. My Kennedy(NOT SOFT) set, Soft Dollar Set and A C/S/B set. Now here I come to ask you guys again. I am familiar with coin magic but I am not so familiar with the types of halves and dollars. Basically what I am asking what coin is what?

I own the 1964 Kennedy Halves set and Flipper.
I am not sure if it is an expanded [ or not. I don't know what the Expanded [ means.
I don't need the foreign coins history, but unless in the magic world I had never known that these other coins existed.

what are the Following:

Barber Halves
Walking Liberties/Halves
Soft Morgan Dollars (Look like Barber)
Peace Dollars

also are soft coins Milled? I know it sounds like am asking a lot and sound like a real novice but I am not, its just that I always worked with regular coins or marketed coins, never really with a set of such quality(With the Exception of my 1964 Kennedy Halves set)

So I'm looking at investing about $350. I just want to make sure I know what I am getting.
Daegs
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Ok..

First off, expanded means the shell fits over a normal sized coin, whereas an unexpanded shell will only fit on coins that are cut-down(smaller than the normal coin). it used to be that generally the coin is "pressed" flatter which expands it.

If the shell was the same size as the coin its supposed to be used with, it wouldnt be able to fit as it wouldnt fit "over" the coin.

Barber halfs are around 1890-1910's or so and are just half dollars, they are usually SUPER soft.

Walking Liberties are a bit after that and while can be found soft usually are a bit rougher.

Soft Morgan are just morgans that have either naturally or artificially worn down.
Peace are newer than morgans and just another variation on a silver dollar.


Soft coins, natural ones wont be milled unless re-milled. Coins that were artificially softened will probably still be milled.

A soft coin is just a coin that is worn down to the point that when it is rubbed with another soft coin, its very quiet and smooth. The coin feels "soft".

Any coin, including a kennedy half, can be a "soft" coin, depending on the wear...

But its important to realize that natural soft coins just come from a long period of use and so everything is naturally worn down, including the milling.

I would just stick with what you have if you don't have a reason to change.

There is a ton of stack work(notably Kainoa's stuff) that *requires* soft coins because they are coming on and off a stack so much that you couldn't do it silently if not for the soft coins.

So if you are doing coin work that requires soft coins, use soft coins, for just regular stuff and shell work, a normal set should be fine(not soft).

Personally I only use barbers and self-softened morgans because I do a lot of work that requires it... but its really just a personal preference.
Jonathan Townsend
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Ossining, NY
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You can find nice pictures of those coins on the web, and even find offerings on ebay if you so choose. Morgan dollar, Peace Dollar, Barber Half Dollar... very quick to find.

As to what you are seeking... heck if anyone else knows.

What specifically do you expect to use these coins for?

And... keep in mind that the props don't make the magician. All that other stuff from script to poise and presentation have to be there as well.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Rob Elliott
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There are pictures of Barber and Walking Liberty halves here
and Morgan and Peace dollars here.
Dan Watkins
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Rua,

I will try to write you a concise summary:

Soft = the faces of the coins are worn down so they slide silently over each other. Soft coins usually have worn edges as well. Soft coins allow for routines where you need to silently add to and take away coins from a stack. It also helps to facilitate transfers of entire stacks of coins into different concealments without noise. Coins can be softened via the natural process of time over a century, or artifically created.

Milling = the gnurling or grooves on the edges of the coins. Good milling means that you have a good grippy edge. Soft coins can be re-edged to give you the desirable attributes of soft coins, with the benefits of grippy edges.

Expanded Shells are used over regular coins. Un-Expanded Shells are used over coins that have been slightly cut down in diamter and re-edged. Un-Expanded shells typically cover their re-edged coins more. However, if you lose a re-edged coin, you have to get a replacement made as opposed to just getting another coin.

As for coins themselves:

Kennedy's, Walking Liberty's. and Barbar's are all half dollars. Walkers are a little thinner than Kennedy's and Barbar's are thinner yet. Older coins tend to have more wear making them softer and have less milling.

Morgans and Peace are silver Dollars, Morgans are older. They are about the same size.

I personally use Walking Liberty Halves that are semi-soft - with a light touch they are silent, but they will make some noise if quickly rubbed. They are re-edged as well.

I use soft Morgan Dollars some are re-edged, some are not.
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