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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Hanging coins or Hidden coins? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Platt
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Inner circle
New York
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Is it just me, or does this trick reek of hidden coins. I've seen both the creator, Roth, and Michael Ammar perform this and I don't understand how so many people swear by it. I don't think I'm thinking like a magician here but a human. It just seems the immediate, intuitive and logical deduction for a layman is that the hand is hiding coins. Where else could the coins be? If the idea here is to impress spectators with your ability to hide coins, great. Otherwise I can't believe this could have an impact. I know many of you love this trick and Roth is a genius, etc....

But on this one, it just seems too easy to deduce the method.
Sugar Rush is here! Freakishly visual magic. http://www.plattmagic.com
Rob Elliott
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Reston VA
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I believe that it only seems obvious to us because we know the method. Take a look at the expression on Monica's face on the Roth tapes. She's truly stumped. With coins hidden in edge grip, the hand looks so open that laypeople can't imagine that you're actually concealing a coin there. The same holds true for Geoff Latta's Nowhere Palm. If you ask me, EG and NP are far more convincing than the over-used Ramsay Subtlety.
Jonathan Townsend
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Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
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Quote:
On 2006-05-09 14:09, Rob Elliott wrote:
...If you ask me, EG and NP are far more convincing than the over-used Ramsay Subtlety.


Agreed about decpetive concealments. I moved my work from CP out to EG when it was made available. Nothing beats showing an empty looking hand. Smile NP was not in print at the time so that had to stay quiet.

As to the Ramsay thing... well you really can't call a subtle display which is meant to be noticed ONLY by the curios a concealment on the same order as EG... I hope. And agreed there are folks abusing the thing to the point where FP work might be getting risky.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Rob Elliott
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Reston VA
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My point exactly, Jon. There are lots of people out there using what's supposed to be a subtlety to "prove" that their hands are empty at the end of a routine. The problem is, holding one hand out with the fingers half closed while the other hand is clearly empty, only draws attention to the fact that you're not being open.

If you really want to show your hands empty, you're much better off sleeving the coins or ditching them in various places during the course of the routine as in Troy Hooser's Coin Melange.
Pachin
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I like Doug Brewer routine. However, I use a flip with a [ instead of 3 coins . You can hang two coins with no hidden coins in ramsay sub. The third coin ( nested flip in [] will be the only one that you will required the Ramsay subtley.
However, if Ramsay is an issue you can replace it by using Geoff Latta's grip (sorry I cannot recall the exact name).

Let me know what you think

Joaquin
Jonathan Townsend
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Ossining, NY
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Quote:
On 2006-05-09 16:09, Pachin wrote:
I like Doug Brewer routine. However, I use a flip with a [ instead of 3 coins . You can hang two coins with no hidden coins in ramsay sub. The third coin ( nested flip in [] will be the only one that you will required the Ramsay subtley.
However, if Ramsay is an issue you can replace it by using Geoff Latta's grip (sorry I cannot recall the exact name).

Let me know what you think

Joaquin


That's essentially using an three coin nesting set for the trick and yes it works very well. Just a TINY bit more work and you can get the coins into the hat too. Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Jaz
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NJ, U.S.
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When I saw it years ago it fooled me badly.
I've gotten strong reactions from Roth's version in the ECM book as well as his "Hanging Coins" version with a twist of my own.

Rob already said this but I'll say it my way.
You're naturally displaying the coins so they can see them and the hands are seen very empty.

I have to admit that there were moments when I had the same thoughts as you Platt but then I look back at how Roth amazed me and later how well it's works for me.
Jacob Smith
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The first time I saw this performed was by my friend and I knew almost nothing about coin magic besides the big 3 coin palms.it destroyed me when he reproduced them!
Alexander Cagliostro
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I think that to us it does seem that there is only one place the coins can be, but I showed this to my girlfriend a while back and she was totally baffled.

She is very used to the older concealments and principles of magic (I've known her for eight years) but this was the first time I'd used the EG. Completely fooled her.
I learnt it from the Ammar DVD and I think that the plot really appealed as well. If you really visualise the 'hanging coins' and give them a little push (watch them swing in the air and remember where you 'put' them ) then this adds to the charm and provides good misdirection.

It reminds me slightly of the effect where you turn over 'invisible cards' on a table.(really just producing them from a front P.)
the visual really helps the whole effect that you are portraying.
This is a really 'angly' effect though so you have to be careful when and where it's used.
Nathan Kranzo
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Remember Kurz made them all go. Smile

Bill Duncan also has a great routine that teaches a very good tansfer which shows both hands empty. This is great because it is done during the transfer of a single coin and not a hand washing.

Harold Cataquet published a very clean version where the coins melt away and there is even a moment where you can show both hands empty. It can be found in England Up Close by Peter Duffie.

All the best,

Kranzo
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seidedennis
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Denmark
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I started doing magic about two years ago, so I remember clearly that hanging coins fooled me and my friends bigtime when seeing it performed. However, I now know the mechanics and I know where to look, so it's no longer a mystery.

However (and this is realy funny); if I record a hanging coin routine or even a three coin vanish (like the one on Coinman Walking) I get fooled if I mirror the video! I guess it's because I'm used to looking for the coins I n the right hand, but now they're in the left. Perhaps this is closer to the Laymans view?

Try it out if you get the chance.

/dennis
info2victor
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This is indeed an interesting topic. I guess many of you will face this question sometime: Does it really fool people? or Will this sleight be obvious?

This happens to me all the time. As I learn more and more sleights, I can't avoid but thinking will the way this sleight can be used would sell away how another sleight is done? Sometimes when I show my hands "empty" using a subtlty I wonder when I use another subtly would this one be figured out... etc.

The truth is you'll never know what the layman thinks. To them what you may be afraid of may really just because you know how it is done. So Bob is right about "it only seems obvious to us because we know the method"

The truth is no one would believe you have magical power that can dis-integrate a coin and make it re-materialize. You can create a magical moment, but you are not a super-natural being.

Do the right effect a the right time, and don't be scared of exposing (after you've practised, of coz)... every sleights has it's "weakness", if one always be afriad of exposing anything, NO effect can be done in the end... isn't that sad Smile
It only takes a minute to learn how it is done, but takes a lifetime to learn how to do it.

You've got a coin?
Chris SD
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I have two words for you my friends.
Kainoa Harbottle.
Kainoa
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What's interesting about this topic is that most of us are talking about how it has or has not fooled us and then projecting our reactions on the spectator rather than discussing the effect from the practical experience of how it fools an audience (thanks, Rob). As info2victor points out, it's always difficult to discuss things from that latter angle, but it's probably the best way to go about it. As I've said before when discussions or disparagement of Hanging Coins has come up, I live and die by this effect, usually doing it at every table I perform at. Of course, I've modified it to avoid what Platt dislikes--the static position of the coins.

Both myself and Garrett Thomas use the Hanging Coin sequences regularly in our close up work, and both of us have independently developed solutions that I've dubbed the "Pendulum" sequence: vanishing back and forth with both hands rather than just one. This not only cleans up the magic, but it fries those skeptics you're worried about.

And since I usually do the vanish sequence, do a flurry with the apparently single coin, and then reproduce the coins (as I discuss it Cointopia), I often get a gasp when the second coin reappears. That's the magic response noise I want, which I don't think one gets if one's merely trying to impress spectators with one's ability to hide coins. I'm not quite sure what that sentence means, actually.

So I'm really agreeing with Platt on one level (the original effect kept the coins a little too static for my taste), but have learned to make edge grip extremely effective by actually avoiding those wrist bends and involving both hands.
info2victor
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I cannot agree more with Kainoa for it's probably the best way to go about the spec. angle. Afterall they are the ones we are perfroming for.

Kainoa also points out a very nice idea that one can "vanishing back and forth with both hands rather than just one". From this point onward I think it may be a good idea to blend a few twists to the "standard" Hanging Coins. The "standard" one I know of is one in which 4 coins vanish one by one till one is left (4->3->2->1) and then come back at the same time. One may think it's a bit too easy to follow and the coins just disappear one by one. So if I can suddenly make a disppeared coin appear back and disapear again during the sequence (say 4->3->2->3->1), or do a 1-coin flurry when one is left, that would be a nice combination of effects, and I believe the spec. would like it.

Of coz don't over combine the effects, but with some twists I think it'd be nice, and you can have variations for different spec. using the "same" routine =).
It only takes a minute to learn how it is done, but takes a lifetime to learn how to do it.

You've got a coin?
Jonathan Townsend
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Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
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Folks might like to explore Roth's offering where the last coin vanishes as well. It's in his Expert Coin Magic in the Cylinder and Coins routine. Of course a stand up kind of guy is also free to use "other" places to lose the last coin, but props for the thinking go to Roth.

Agreed about the wrist bend stuff. Try leaving your arm in place and take a step back with one foot (thus turning) and allow that action to motivate the arm motion leaving your wrist unflexed.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Rik Chew
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For a slightly different 'hang', for one coin, you can do a VCA/3Fly style pull down of a coin, and keep it hidden passing the other coins from hand to hand. Of course you can't keep it there permanantly, but it gives a slightly different look, quite a deceptive false take.
info2victor
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Yeah~ and don't forget to use the "mickey mouse move"~
It only takes a minute to learn how it is done, but takes a lifetime to learn how to do it.

You've got a coin?
Jonathan Townsend
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Ossining, NY
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Funny about the pull back stuff. Geoff Latta did version of the Hanging Coins that did not use Edge Grip back in 1977. It used the pullback thing and also his Nowhere Palm.

For more on that stuff, ask him directly.

If you're working toward the Ramsay "take a coin and hang it in mid-air" stuff... yeah the pullback gives you ONE coin. From there you might have to get comfortable with Nowhere Palm or other concealments or worse... use gaffs.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Rik Chew
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I've heard Nowhere palm mentioned a few time, but never referenced to any sources where it can be learnt, so where can it be learnt!? Also what type of situations and angles is it suited to?
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