|
|
Dan LeFay Inner circle Holland 1371 Posts |
I always considered myself a magician who loves to study, perform and create coinmagic. I could almost say I am a "coinguy"...
Recently I heard something remarkable from one of magic's greatest. He told me: "I a do not see myself as a coinguy." I laughed and mentioned a routine of his ( with coins) which is a sensation for laypeople and magicians alike. He said: " A coinguy is someone who covets the coins and gaffs (and techniques) he works with. I am not interested in that. I want to create art with magic. The coins in this instance are merely the tool with which I create, as are cards etc." I nodded and was about to say I felt the same way.... Then it dawned on me that he was right. I DO covet coins and gaffs. But I also want to create beautiful magical art with it. What am I? A coinguy? do I really want to be seen like that? Is it a title to be proud of? Recently I've seen an abundance of coinroutines on the internet, on dvd's and performed by "coinguys". Some really big names. I have to say that most of them did not impress me at all. Unmagical, aimed towards technique, novelty and without any meaning. I DO realise that these are show-offs or tutorials for magicians. And I sincerely hope these performers do better when they are in front of a paying layaudience. I am past the phase of copying others and wanting to do "the latest". But I am asking myself: Is this the way the "coinguys" (includes me!) want to represent themself for future reference? Mea culpa. But I'm working to get better than that. I wonder what you guys think? Am I too harsh or is there a big difference between the magicians that create and innovate the possibilities with a certain material (coins) and those who are out in the trenches and perform? And ultimately the blessed soul who does both?
"Things need not have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths, that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot." Neil Gaiman |
eddieloughran Special user 942 Posts |
I'm not sure I follow you !
"Coinguy" seems a bad name for, what I understand, to mean someone who collects the coins and props as an end in itself. Then you jump to magicians who perform only for magicians, to those who perform for the public, calling yourself a Coinguy and then writing of wanting to perform good routines yourself. I like props and have a number of "fake" coins, but that doesn't mean I don't perform, or that when I do, I don't use "normal" coins. The fakes are used mostly for other magicians or to amuse myself. What of the card men who use different cards, or the collectors of cups and balls ? And you want to see my collection of childrens props ! As to whether one who performs for magicians is different to one who performs for real people, this has been discussed endlessly round in circles. It goes nowhere. And the argument about lecturers who don't perform is a different subject, I think. The Non-Coinguy who told you his theory is confussed, if not wrong. Maybe he was just being clever ! |
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I thought the idea was to do magic for audiences.
Whatever medium you use ... the goal is pretty much the same.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10957 Posts |
Some time we create effects for others to use so that they and improve on these new ideas...
example .. a violin is made for a musician to play beautiful music.....if they put in the time and practice |
phedonbilek Special user Greece, Cameroon, France 883 Posts |
I think that as magicians we kind of lost our 'layperson' perception of magic... What I mean is that laypeople are not aware of sleights (or shouldn't be!), what they see is the magic. What WE see however is the sleight used to accomplish an effect, and its difficulty. We spend hours and hours training to accomplish it, and when we master it, we want to use it! We unconsciously think that the harder the sleight, the more magical our performance will be. And you see, as a result, all these videos of magicians performing not for laypeople, but for other magicians, as a demonstration of dexterity.
I can't put my thoughts down in a clear way in english, and don't know whether I am understood or not. But what I know is that we're alienating the primary purpose of magic, we shifted the focus on the tools rather than keeping our minds on the -perceived- outcome of an effect. I think the best way to stay on the tracks is to constantly look for lay audiences' reactions to our effects, and to have the strength to base our decisions on what to keep and what to throw away on this, not on what WE like or on what's technically more demanding. Phedon
...The only easy day is yesterday...
|
magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
Depends on your definition of Coinguy. Mine has a POSITIVE connotation.
:spinningcoin: |
magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-05-13 05:20, Dan LeFay wrote: I do not believe that calling someone a Coinguy will negate the possibility or fact that he is a "blessed soul who does both". |
Dan LeFay Inner circle Holland 1371 Posts |
I realise it is very hard to put these thoughts in words (especially since english is not my first language).
Realise also I am not bashing on other magicians, wether they perform for layaudiences, magicans, both or neither. What I wrote is a rather painful realisation on part of myself. It is not about coins, gaffs, props or whatever. I came to the conclusion that most of what I see performed on dvd, or internet is rather cointechnique, cointrick variation, than coin magic. In opposite I recall performances of Armando Lucero, John Carney, Tommy Wonder or Chad Long. Wonderful, funny, poetic even melancholic. In character and absolutely in performing mode (and in case of Carney and Wonder also on dvd!) Maybe that last line explains it more. Why do a lot of us show so little "performance mode" when we put something on video? A lot of neophyte copy what they see from internet or dvd. Most of us do or did. But how good are these examples they copy from?
"Things need not have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths, that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot." Neil Gaiman |
magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
Find a GOOD example to LEARN from, maybe. Personal responsibility.
|
Nathan Kranzo V.I.P. 2955 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-05-13 18:15, magicalaurie wrote: Wow. Right on. You pretty much said it all right there. All the best, Kranzo
check out MINDZILLA VOL. 2!!! Brand New Effects. Instant Downloads. Watch Demo Videos. Click below!!!
KranzoMagic.com |
Chris "linkster" Watson Special user England 564 Posts |
I think some of this discussion comes down to the old phrase of "you are what you do!" Coin magic by it's nature requires a lot of practice to get to a reasonable standard and if you put in that time I guess you wear the cap "coinguy".
Once you have learned the moves what happens then? Do you go in search of the latest greatest gaff, move, routine etc. Or do you hone several routines until you could do them with one hand tied behind your back (Hey how about that for the next generation coins across?)and once you have them mastered you allow your performance and your personality to shine through...what cap do you wear then? Coinguy? Magician? On Magic by Gosh the video albert talks about the different kinds of magicians, the box collectors, finger flickers, etc He speaks about a professional doing old magic for new audiences and an amateur doing new tricks for old audiences but never mastering anything. Shouldn't the questions be - are we offering our audience a magical experience, one that we perform confidently everytime? The other thing albert mentions is that "the magic is you!" His act was probably 95% coins...would you call him a coin guy? I'd call him a wonderful entertainer..Oh and he performed magic with coins as well! |
ehands Special user Mississippi 524 Posts |
I wonder if there aren’t two simple, unregrettable reasons why so many DVDs appear “Unmagical, aimed towards technique, novelty and without any meaning.”
First the DVDs and lectures are for magicians. They are not intended to entertain lay audiences. We buyers want to learn technique. We want new methods. This seems to me OK if we are also honing presentational skills elsewhere (from other teaching aids and directly, as Jonathan Townsend promotes, from audience reactions). Secondly, an important part of what you may feel is missing on the DVDs should be personal. Maybe we need to let that part emerge from ourselves. In which case, DVD instruction risks harm via homogenization. I believe the original question is important and that it stimulated great suggestions that I will try to put into practice. If my thoughts are valid, however, maybe the original question expressed a bit too much concern? Isn’t the more fundamental question not whether instructional materials fail to teach entertainment skills, but whether performers fail to entertain? And how can that be corrected?
"Oh look, we have created enchantment." Blanche DuBois
|
Chris "linkster" Watson Special user England 564 Posts |
Ehands you have an interesting point about performers failing to entertain. I mentioned goshman in my previous post and it is interesting to see that the Magic by Gosh Video (teaching vid)isn't a patch (Performance wise) on the Goshman Performs video which is Brilliant. I think without real world audiences to bounce off tuitional videos can be a little flat and come to think of it my favourite performance peices on instructional videos are of a magician performing live and then describing how they do it at a later stage.
|
Rindfleisch Special user New Jersey 502 Posts |
If I try to get that analytical it hurts my head.
A coin guy is a person who's main focus is coins. This is a term that's used more in the magic community. it denotes what your main interest is in. Same with cards and rubberbands. the problem with this is it pigeon holes you into a stereo-type. I try not to dig too deep and find esoteric meanings in things. Joe
check me out on facebook #MAGICTOTD
|
Nathan Kranzo V.I.P. 2955 Posts |
Quote:
I try not to dig too deep and find esoteric meanings in things. That is probably best Joe. I agree. : ) You pretty much just summed it all up. I just try and be an "entertainer-guy". Whatever my fellow magicians decide to label me is fine and doesn't really matter as long as the lay public is entertained. All the best, Nathan
check out MINDZILLA VOL. 2!!! Brand New Effects. Instant Downloads. Watch Demo Videos. Click below!!!
KranzoMagic.com |
Moyle with Parkinsons Loyal user Australia 281 Posts |
I think I may have lost the question in amongst all these posts but I beleive that one of the burning question orginally was that Dan was disheartened at the lack of performance in the DVDs they see. I think that this is done purposely by the magician who film them to enhance the education of the magician watching. I'm sure that you would all agree that you can easily be taught slieghts or techniques of the the magic that you prefer to perform but how to perform those sleights effectively within your own character or persona is something that no one in the world can teach you. I think what a magician on a dvd gives you, to use anaglogy, is a pie skin. They only give you the pie skin you have to decide what sort of pie you are going to make. By giving this bland bare bones sort of explanation of the slieght you are then forced to make the sleight your own. Call it tough love There's my take on the matter.
Moyle
"Signatures cause far too much trouble!" an original quote by Moyle With Parkinsons.
|
airship Inner circle In my day, I have driven 1594 Posts |
I would love to see more DVDs produced that start with a show with a lay audience, followed by an effect-by-effect tutorial for magicians. That way, you could see both the 'show' and the lesson. Besides, I like to watch good magic actually PERFORMED, not just taught.
'The central secret of conjuring is a manipulation of interest.' - Henry Hay
|
Dan LeFay Inner circle Holland 1371 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-05-16 03:00, Moyle with Parkinsons wrote: That is a very promising way to look it Moyle. I will work hard to see the glass (in this issue) as half-full instead of half-empty ;-). Going for esoteric meaning is of course a personal matter Joe. I tend to (over)do so yes. But I don't think that getting dis-enchanted by watching uninspired technical display of skill has anything to do with that. If Moyle is right I hope that newbies will realise his "pie-skin" anology. I myself have seen to many who emulated a pie-skin instead of baking a full sized pie. I even see them flooding the "market"...
"Things need not have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths, that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot." Neil Gaiman |
jon dough New user 37 Posts |
My favorite type of magic is sleight of hand. I could use spongeballs etc. Coins mean money. Money makes people look. Magic with money seems to get the best attention for your sleight of hand. T. Nelson Downs gravestone says,"King of Koins." If only I was that good of a Coinguy...
|
harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts |
Some have called me a "Coin Guy".
My usual response is I like to be more of an "Audience Guy". After reading the Books of Wonder, I am thinking about the statement.."You just need to entertain", which was posed by Mr. Wonder. Although my routines have been entertaining, these last few years, I have added stronger magic. You are all appreciated by, Harris
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Do I want to ba a "Coinguy"? (0 Likes) |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.04 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |