Forgive me if this is too elementary a question, but

Why edge grip over Down's palm? What are the advantages? Are the angles really that much better? Or is it something else?

Thanks,
Jack Shalom

No. Same angles. Not better, just different for different needs. The edge grip is further away from the flesh of the palm than Down's palm. I have noticed that once I got better at edge grip, getting in and out of Down's palm was easier.

After Harry published my "Coin Go-Return" I was non-plussed to find someone had devolved the thing to work from Downs Palm. This included the loss of the retention-to-edgeGrip and the very light touch transfers. Then I realized the motivation... they were working parlor and I was working closeup.

For parlor or stage, Downs Palm plays better ... for the larger gestures and no extra required handling. Remember all that fun stuff Downs and Buckley and Shaw published.

:)

Not sure my HPC stuff into and out of EG or the other stuff would work so well but hey, for some things DP is wonderful. Kainoa sought the best of both worlds by taking EG down a half inch into his version of EG.

So, I'm hearing

1) Transfers into and out of the palm might be better handled with EG than DP depending on context, and

2) Venue, and size of gesture could be an important reason for choosing one over the other.


So, again, a very naive question--given that there is less finger mobility in certain ways with EG, would it be sacrilege to try a hanging coins routine with a DP instead of EG?


Thanks,
Jack Shalom

One of the advantages of edge grip is that it's easy as pie to palm a half-dollar or dollar coin if you have a smaller hands like I do. Turly, it's a small-hand coin magician's dream comes true!

Certainly not, despite what your interpretations of the scriptures of Expert Coin Magic might lead you to believe. A number of prophets have (I think Rune Klan is the one who really mastered this....or is it R. Paul Wilson?)--so the question has been asked (and answered) before (I'm too lazy to do a search for the posts at this time). Using Downs palm also allows you to hang a coin with the palm facing the audience, which is a nice way to change up the routine (and one of the first ways I played with the Pendulum Problem). I know a lot of people who have told me that they find Downs palm more comfortable for them than edge grip for stack work because of the size of their hand or coin or both.

As I argue, in the sometimes suppressed Gospel of Coins on Edge, the position between Downs and Rothian EG (as Jonathan points out above) has its benefits, particularly for my hands; it provides me with a mix of speedy access and adequate freedom of movement. And, hey, when else do you get to perform a "palm" that involves a finger and your thumb? I mean, come on, where's the skill in that? We should really call it "edge grab." Even a magician as unskilled as Gob Bluth could master it.

Ye that whole edge grip thing is sooo easy </sarcasm!> I like the name edge grap, apart from beign accurate, it could also avoid a lot of confusion, but then we don't get words like Rothian...
Who's Gob Bluth?
Evolve I agree about the small hands, because of the grab it does seem easier with smaller hands.
As for using DP for hanging coins, I'm sure the 'rules' in general for edge grip would work, DP for parlour, EG for closeup.

Thanks all, especially for the humor. I will take into account that advice about the various Gospels not necessarily being . . . gospel. But wait, I think that's Tom Hanks over there, chasing me . . .


Jack Shalom

For me the advantage of EG work (and more often Nowhere Palm) is that my thumb has COMPLETE freedom without risk. I have control issues with Down's concealment that simply don't occur with the others.

Plus, getting into and out of OTHER conealments within the same hand is much easier for me than from Down's Palm and that's the key to good constuction. It's not about where you hide the coins, but how you convey the impression that nothing is concealed.

If you're not an edge grip fan, buy Coins on Edge, you'll see the light.

I wonder if one chooses to adopt EG all he´s repertoire must be reworked and readapted, the material on books and DVD´s must be translated to accomodate the EG. I´m very exited about the EG after I´ve read some threds about the subject and about Kainoa´s development of what apears to be a New System. I´m hesitating to buy "coins on edge" because of this concern. Any opinion?
fernando quartin

From what I know, admittedly not a great deal, EG can to a large extent replace CP, and is more suitable for performing standing up, with the coins at the chest. Most tricks that use CP can be reworked relatively easily to use EG, but of course you can still do those routines as they are using CP.
Hope that helps
Rik

I wonder if one chooses to adopt EG all he´s repertoire must be reworked and readapted, the material on books and DVD´s must be translated to accomodate the EG. I´m very exited about the EG after I´ve read some threds about the subject and about Kainoa´s development of what apears to be a New System. I´m hesitating to buy "coins on edge" because of this concern. Any opinion?
fernando quartin

I'm also a follower to the EG~

I'm not very familiar with DG and I never use it in my routines. When I learnt it it was used as a vanish of the final coin and the movement and the positioning of the thumb are quite discouraging to me.

Later on I bought a book from Kainoa featuring EG. Took me a while to get the feeling of it but I really like it. The best part is it allows you to hold the remaining coins rather freely while EG-ing the coin(s), you can flip the visible coin and you don't need to be so careful with your finger gaps as in FP.

Recently I'm restructuring my Geek routine (do a search using the key word "Geek" to a more simple routine mainly using EG. I think it is one of the best sleight for standup worker.

Why?

Bill's hit on one reason--with EG you can shift to 2nd finger curl palm, and free your thumb completely. With DP, you're pretty much stuck.

The coins have a shorter distance to travel, so there's less movement visible. This makes a lot of fingertip effects much more deceptive.

With a stack in EG, your thumb can access the top of the stack. (see CoE for details) It's possible to access the top of the stack in DP, but it's a larger movement and your thumb's not available.

I am a big fan of DP. In fact, some of the techniques in CoE are Kainoa's improvements on my DP applications. But I know an improvement when I see it, and for the reasons above, I now use Kainoa's EG techniques instead. There, I said it. I hope you're happy now, Mr. H.

Hi, SS, there is a place in the coin world for all palms, there is no one that should replace another, unless it improves the specific action you require. Classic palm is called classic for a reason, it allows you to have access to all your fingers in the free-est way possible, with the least angle concern possible. I am hard pressed to think of another conealment that has better angles, as well as provides the least locking of the thumbs and fingers. As for edge grip, when Roth began showing his hanging coins using edge grip, it was a revelation. The hands looked very open and deceptively empty. People had no idea what he was doing. Now, 30 yrs later, I am surprised to see people putting down this concealment. It is as good as it was 30 yrs ago. Kainoa Harbottle has found a way to make edge grip even more versatile, as witnessed by his wonderful ideas in his books, (and on our COINS ACROSS DVD - blatent plug ). However, there is a tradeoff, as the hand can not appear as empty as Roth's edge grip. It will depend on what you want for your effect - a cleaner look, or a more versatle handling. There is always a tradeoff. That is why you need to learn all of the concealments, which will allow you the freedom to decide what you want to accomplish in your effect.

The hands might appear more empty with the Roth edge grip...True. But your angles suffer a little more.

Now, from what I understand, what Roth teaches for EG and what Roth actually uses for EG are slightly different, yea?