|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next] | ||||||||||
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Proposed ingredients for a solution:
0) Recognize the difference between a magician and a muggle and respect that distinction in perspectives. Magicians DO methods and PRESENT entertainment. Muggles receive entertainment and should have no awareness of methods, as per Clarke's Third Law. 1) Treat magic data in print (magic shop books) as property given in trust by the author to the reader. Though in print, it is only in print within our little community and NOT open to the public. We can discuss how to ensure and enforce this boundary between magicdom and the outside world later. 1a) What about the "oldies and classics"? They are being researched by folks like Charles Kalush and the oldest printed sources of material on that subject are being collected for reference. Every one of these is the result of many years and perhaps many lifetimes of hard work by members of our community long gone. Why are some here willing to toss our history and our legacy out into the world of trivia? 2) Treat your routines and artistic decisions as forming a basis of PRIVATE PROPERTY. That implies respecting other people's material (decisions, props, routine ect) 3) When it comes time to propagate your data (share with others/publish) make sure all of the works that inform your work are cited and your contributions to the craft are evident so they can be referenced by others later. These are things we can do on our own. Each of us gets to choose associates and partners on projects and how if at all their works are offered to this community* . But what about those who feel "otherwise" about this stuff and will expose material, start rumors and publish works that are not theirs to even show? You are free to buy from them or not. You are free to show them your work or not. You are free to sell your work to them or not. You are free to discuss your ideas with them or not. How you treat those who take and those who expose is up to you. * Does it make sense to discuss magic methods (data) with muggles? My feeling remains that it does NOT. They seem to be just fine accepting mysteries in their everyday lives. We can discuss our history without discussing the mechanics of the mysteries performed back then. Those mechanics may yet prove useful to you or others. IMHO - just a few thoughts for this morning.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
MagicbyCarlo Inner circle has squandered his time making 1062 Posts |
Jonathan, I am with you on this. But these ideas will NEVER be applied as broadly as needed in order to stuff that Genie back into the bottle. I'm afraid we've lost the war on this one, but we can keep up the resistance. I have always had a great respect for magic knowledge because it was so hard for me to obtain especially early in my pursuits, but with today’s open market and the internet, I'm afraid that the value of this information has been lost on an entire generation. I have a 13 year old student that has more information than he knows what to do with or can even manage; he is over collecting information and not focusing on what makes a good performer or performance. This due to parents indulgence, the over abundance of available information, and a television based attention span. So you might ask “Why bother?” I guess because at some level I and several other magicians are slowly getting through. But, what about those who have resources and no other guidance, who will get through to them? I mean, how often do you see the attitudes here in these forums? How much energy will you or can you expend raging against this, and in the end keeping perspective with real problems that face humanity how important is it to keep a leash on this information? I would share or give away every secret including those I have no rights to if someone would release the secrets to end the dependence on fossil fuels, the cure for childhood cancers, and the peace in the world. The thing is that some people have a much lower price; they’re willing to trade those secrets for a car payment, groceries or the electric bill. Fortunately I’ve never been in that position, but if I were I can’t say that I wouldn’t do the same. I know that it has been suggested that those that sell these secrets go out and perform in order to make money, and some even do, but the truth is that magic is a hard, cruel, and competitive business. Bookings run hot and cold, price competition pushes prices down, stamina fades and let’s face it very few of us get rich performing magic. So there’s that slippery slope! Man, I could go on, but in the interest of my own sanity, I’ll leave this fight to you and cheer you on along the way. I wish you the best of luck.
Carlo DeBlasio
<BR>Entertainment specialist <BR>and all around fun guy! |
|||||||||
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Carlo, folks
You get to do as you please. Your actions are your principles and beliefs as far as the world is concerned. Do you support those who expose? Do you keep secrets? Can you be trusted to keep new material secret? These are the choices and commitments (to yourself) you get to make and keep. They are part of becoming an adult, that is finding your own principles and living according to your principles. On the good side, yes there is new stuff. Can you see it? Maybe the stuff that's set up for sale to the magic market. Maybe. What about the "good stuff" you may well ask. That is only available on a person-to-person basis to those mature enough to be willing and able to make a solemn promise to keep magic secrets private without need to gossip or show off to other magicians. Gee, if the only price for new stuff is being able to keep secrets you'd think it would be very easy for magic to evolve. But sadly most in magic are not magicians but folks looking to seem clever by showing tricks. Sadly? Yes. You see "clever" is useful up till the end of grade school when peer level social skills become more important. Then in high school it becomes more important to learn how to work with superiors (teachers and counselors) to get ahead. Then in college it becomes critical to learn how to learn on your own and with select peer groups. You might ask: "Can you phrase that in the form of an aphorism we can live with? Sure folks, here is the old story version: A guy says out loud "I wish I had a ham sandwich". The magician reaches into his pocket and pulls out a wrapped ham sandwich. And there is the lesson. The guy did not ask the magician to find his lost card. He did not ask the magician to tell him what number he wrote down on a slip of paper or what color ribbon he picked from a bag of ribbons. No, he wished for something he desired. Do you care what people desire? How about what they feel?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
MagicMarker Elite user 498 Posts |
I just bought the Wakeling book yesterday.
I'm sure some would argue that by buying it I'm encouraging Jim Steinmeyer to publish more books of this kind, and that's true. I pause this think how I felt about this book being on the shelves of Borders and Barnes and Noble. I read Hiding the Elephant when it came out too, and I read Carter beats the Devil. I read as much as I can on Magic, whether it's Fiction, or History, or a Karl Fulves book, or a book without an ISBN that can only be gotten from the local magic store. Do I read all these books because I wan't to be a famous magician? No, it's a hobby, I enjoy it. I like doing magic, I like learning about the history of magic, and the personalities. I like reading about Vernon tracking down the center deal, even though I have no intention of performing it, it's a great story. I notice when I stand in the Magic section of Book Stores, I'm usually alone. And if there is someone else there, they are usually trying to learn how to play blackjack, or bridge. I've monitored the turnaround of books on magic and I have to tell you, based on what I've seen, very few if any people are buying them. I suspect 99.9% of them go to people with a genuine interest in magic. Enough of an interest to drag them into the correct aisle in the first place. With regard to the Wakeling book there are a few different issues here, and it's important to deal with them separately. 1. How would Wakeling have felt about the book being sold to the public? He assisted in writing the book, as far as I know, but did he do so with the implicit or explicit agreement that it would be printed in limited quantities for magicians? 2. Is it fair to release a book at a low price to the public after first making it available at a higher price to magicians? What exactly are you buying when you buy a limited edition book? Are you buying an indefinite promise that no more copies will ever be printed, or are you just buying a few years head start? 3. Are all magic books in books stores a bad idea? Is there any evidence that exposure in books actually hurts magic. I might be wrong but my feeling is that very few people are reading these books. As for sales, there's a big difference between buying a book and reading it, much less understanding and retaining it's contents. Ask Stephen Hawking. I read Hiding the Elephant and I was still amazed (saw the fairies) when I saw Lance Burton and David Copperfield perform. Did they use some principles that are exposed in that book? I don't know, probably, I wouldn't know. My wife who hasn't read any magic books saw things at the Lance Burton show that I completely missed. She had a better grasp of how the illusions were done than I did. I think Steinmeyer might be on thin ice ethically in releasing the Wakeling book. I feel some magicians who bought the book in it's original form can feel rightly annoyed that someone like me can pick it up for a fraction of the price. I don't think they need worry that everyone in their audience will know their secrets and will see fireflies instead of faries. But I can see why they'd prefer if this material didn't fall into the hands of the great mass of magicians. As for the book itself. I love it. It's great to see the thought process of someone who found the elegant simplicity at the heart of a trick, used the weaknesses of a method as a strength in the effect, and had an amazing sense of the theatrical component of magic. Anyone familiar with the Blackjack routine, or the Card to Wallet routine will know what I'm talking about here. I think Steinmeyer deserves some criticism for what he has done, but not on the grounds that he his ruining magic by exposing it to the public. How long has the Mark Wilson book been on book shelves? When was the last time you performed for a Muggle that had read it? -MM |
|||||||||
paulE New user 24 Posts |
I too own an original copy of the wakeling book which is beautifully bound and is a great piece of work about a great magician
he has also released art and artifice in paperback,most of this can be found in hiding the elephant anyway but the work of charles morrit is highlighted in the final essay and reveals some methods but in a more vague way tham what is said in the wakeling book I pray that jim will not release what for me is his best book and that is the Jarrett book.i would be very upset if that great historical text was released having paid a lot for it and it also contains a good few methods that are still used today such as p""""""l effects etc as a collector and avid reader regarding grand illusion and mentalism I am worried about great inventors and innovators like jim releasing the books to he general public for such a low price.i am sure he wouldnt be very happy if someone released the workings of origami or interlude or my personal favourite osmosis illusion for such a cheap price |
|||||||||
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-11-08 12:41, paulE wrote:...as a collector and avid reader regarding grand illusion and mentalism I am worried about great inventors and innovators like jim releasing the books to he general public for such a low price.i am sure he wouldnt be very happy if someone released the workings of origami or interlude or my personal favourite osmosis illusion for such a cheap price Is this about your investment? There is a rumor that most of his stuff was uploaded a while ago. That means if you know where to look, it's free. Perhaps you could invest in something less readily available than magic data as from what I've been hearing that seems to be free for the download. Of course signed first editions will keep a nice value as collectables among those who enjoy such things. I hope to someday acquire a copy of the Harbin book.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Jim is bound by the same rules that all members of the Magic Circle of London are. One of these rules sets a minimum price on a mass market magic book. If a mass market magic book is published at a price less than a certain level, he runs the risk of losing his membership. That means a lot to some of us, little to others.
If memory serves, this minimum price is right about $10.00. Patrick Page's situation was rather odd. He wrote a mass market book that was to sell for about 4 pounds, which would have been okay. Instead, the company who bought the manuscript went bankrupt, and a company called Bell publishing purchased the rights to the manuscript. They sold the completed book at a retail price less than what the Magic Circle permitted. Someone reported Pat to the Council and they booted him out for a year. This may sound unfair, because he had nothing to say about the final price of the book. OTOH, until recently, the Circle was relentless in its control of their members. He did not complain about it at all. After all, David Devant had been booted out for a year when he sold some articles exposing his own magic to a London newspaper. Sure this was harsh, but it made him an example. As long as Jim's prices are within the bounds of the Circle, then he is within his rights to publish the book any way he wants to. There's not much we can do about that. I don't know if Alan left an estate. If he did, then his share of the royalties will go to his estate. This may also be a factor in the decision to publish the work in paperback. So, how many of you remember William Poundstone? He published a series of books called Big Secrets, Bigger Secrets, and Biggest Secrets. I got my copies of these off the remainder shelves. He exposed the Statue of Liberty vanish, Don Wayne's Floating Ball, and a whole lot of other "inside" stuff. He also exposed many of the secrets of the Masons, as well as Coca-Cola's formula. Guess what. All of the things he exposed are still viable. This includes the Masons and Coca-Cola.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Folks, the laws on prostitution and soliciting for such services don't discriminate on price.
Wrong is wrong, even it it's covered in gold foil and comes with a bar of chocolate or a funny accent. So... why do magicians paint the tips of their wands white?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-12-07 09:55, Jonathan Townsend wrote: I have always asked such things and I can come up with one answer. Because others did it. That is about it. I keep hoping that with the Harry Potter movies there will be a change. It would be refreshing indeed.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-12-07 11:34, Dannydoyle wrote:...I keep hoping that with the Harry Potter movies there will be a change. It would be refreshing indeed. What's "card to top" in Latin?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
Magicians painted the tips of their wands white for stage use, to make them visible. If the wand were entirely black, against a black backdrop, it would not be seen by the audience. The black and white, some have said, signifys the dark and light, good and bad, black magic and white.
Card to top in Latin... Abracadabra? Perhaps the trivia questions belong in another part of the forum. I don't know where, just suggesting it. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
|
|||||||||
Suppo Regular user Indianapolis 101 Posts |
Man, I wish some of these books had been around back when I was first getting into this. Being from such a rural place, and before the internet, my three books were Wilson's, Bobo's, and Hugard and Braue's encyclopedia. That was all I could find. It wasnt until a chance port visit found me in Florida many years later did I find my first dealer. The next books were Tarbell's.
Upon a rare occasion growing up I came across a magician and asked how you learned but was never told. Secrets were too closely guarded. I guess if I still suck today any magician whom I met during that time is to blame as much as I am. I had to actually meet a magician in my church while attending college before I was told. Of course he moved on soon after and all I had was those three books. Jim said his publisher is hoping to begin a framework of available text. Well, good. I hope that if there is a younger me out there, they find them and are able to experience the joy of making another person smile. Everyone is worried about exposure. How about those people who do not have ready access to what the people in the major cities have? True our kids are much more internet savvy. How many kids though can drop $40 to $50 on a credit card? Then again, how many kids below the age of majority have one? A bank usually asks for a parent to co-sign because legally the minor could disavow the debt at 18. I depended on my local bookstore because I could pay cash. Even today, most kids in more rural areas are in the same boat. I realize some people depend on this art for their living. As an adult, as long as their heart is still good, I would do nothing to ever hurt that. I do believe, however, that magic is still very rare. Finding out how to get started and how to start is, simply, hard without some good guidance. If Jim puts out some books that would help another me in that quest, good on him. |
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Kids from rural places have managed to find ways. Ever since the beginning of magic.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
If you honestly wish to learn magic, start at its roots.
What we call tricks are just examples of guile used to amuse.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
The answer to why magicians paint the tips of their wands white is very simple. It is illegal to import ivory.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Yea elephants make horrible pets, but they make a grand piano!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
the Sponge Inner circle Atlanta 2771 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-12-08 11:44, Suppo wrote: Many would argue that those 3 books are basic "bible" texts and are enough to produce a fine act. What else could you need? those books are great for someone getting into magic. I am unsure what the Wakling book offers newbies that these basic texts do not. s |
|||||||||
Suppo Regular user Indianapolis 101 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-12-08 14:34, the Sponge wrote: Somehow I thought I said more than that Sponge. The main idea which is what I would be willing to debate is making material available to persons willing to learn, having the right heart, but with no access to or knowledge of where else to go. When I said "many years later" it was to mean a significant amount of time. In fact, it was roughly 10 years later. Danny was right in that I eventually did find a way. Johnathan made a very salient point in that Jim published the routines, thoughts, and ideas of another, not his own. That is the only thing I find ethically challenging. This art is most assuredly to be protected. My simple argument is that there are many areas in which someone can go a lifetime without seeing magic anywhere but on TV or the movies. In 2002 I was stationed in a decent sized town but very remote from civilization (BFE). People in that town still talked about Copperfield having visited it almost a decade prior. My lousy (very) performances were the first many there had ever seen in person. I also bought and gave away several copies of Mark Wilson's course for children who showed interest in learning. Either we look at this as purely business or remember that we started down this road because we loved making other people smile and felt good as a result. don't lose your heart in protecting the secrets and methods. |
|||||||||
the Sponge Inner circle Atlanta 2771 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-12-08 11:48, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Suppo, Jonathan says it right here. And it is one of the hardest things I think. more tricks, or books on tricks wont make you a better magician. And although Jim's books are great, I don't think they make you "a better performer" then the Mark Wilson book does. (and in fairness, the Wilson book probably gives away more secrets than Jim's does, but that is another thread.) s |
|||||||||
Suppo Regular user Indianapolis 101 Posts |
Quote:
Suppo, Well, you have had your say concerning a part of what I wrote. I disagree as I believe it is always valuable to continue reading and learning from different perspectives. |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Jim Steinmeyer books for sale to the Public (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.08 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |