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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I read and try to learn from different perspectives. But to be fair, I find little fo value in the "tricks" section of the library. Magic is not so much about tricks as the stuff we do during those tricks. You can find some ideas about people skills and stories and ideas for stories in places outside the trick shop.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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edh Inner circle 4698 Posts |
Quote:
Pete Biro says: If you are referring to a convention of magicians then I agree with your point. If you're referring to the public then by using that logic viewers of exposure videos on Youtube will better appreciate a well performed act. Quote:
RCP says: Books available to the public = more hacks doing tricks poorly and calling themselves magicians. Quote:
magicmaker says: Again using that type of logic then 99.9% of viewers of Youtube exposure videos have an interest in magic. In my mind whether you put a price tag on exposure or offer it for free, if its available to the public it is exposure. Just seems a bit hypocritcal to cry exposure only when it affects the bottom line. thanks for putting up with my rants.
Magic is a vanishing art.
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Steven Steele Chief of Staff 1868 Posts |
I used to get upset about exposure, but a couple of things happened to me. First of all, when I used to demonstrate magic, people that purchased the linking rings would be upset with the set I sold them. They wanted a set like mine (that really linked and unlinked). Secondly, when the Masked Magician came on the scene, he revealed a couple of things I was doing in my act. People that watched the show sometimes came up to me and told me they had seen a similar trick exposed by the Masked Magician, but that my effect was much better and not obvious like the stuff exposed by the Masked Magician. That only lasted a couple of months after the show.
Finally, there are books, videos, and DVD extras that explain how movies are made and special effects are done. Yet, people still go to movies (regardless of the quality) and enjoy them. Magic is the same way. It's all in the presentation and the ability of the magician to cause the audience to let go and suspend dis-belief. Sometimes I think we think we are more important than we are. In the end, the general public, while enjoying what we do and will pay to see us, really doesn't care how we do it, just that it gets done.
Coram Deo
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
The word RESPONSIBLE applies here.
And that's why NEW stuff, new secrets are not being offered to those who can't act responsibly with the ones they have. Oops that was a secret.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Suppo Regular user Indianapolis 101 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-12-10 11:45, Steven Steele wrote: Second that perspective. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Well I succumbed to temptation and bought the Wakeling book at my local chain bookstore.
I think I was wrong and Steinmeyer was wrong. I was and still am a big supporter of the availability of Hiding the Elephant and The Glorious Deception to the general reading public. To me, as I have said before, these are books that describe the history of magic in a way that treats magic as an intelligent art form. There is in my opinion very little "exposure" in these books. Yes there is talk of mirrors and traps, but I think it is fair to say that anyone with enough interest to pick up the books has a notion of mirrors and traps. I don't think anyone's wonder at a magic performance will be depreciated by these books. But the Wakeling book--oh boy. It's the blow by blow description of a pro's act, with enough detail in method to be clearly aimed at magicians. This isn't about magic culture or history in general but a specialty book about Wakeling's magic. The strange thing about this book is that though it appears that methods are clearly laid out, no beginner would ever actually be able to learn from these descriptions. It would take a pro to really take what this book has to offer and read between the lines and use it. But to a lay person there is certainly enough description, way beyond mirrors and traps, for one to think "Oh, now I know how that's done." Quite different from the other two books, in my opinion. So basically, I'm reading this book as a voyeur, enjoying Wakeling's cleverness, reading about methods that I think I would be happier not to know. I'm about halfway through and don't know if I want to continue. I'm uncomfortable with this book in a way that I haven't felt before. Would I feel the same had I paid $75? Not sure. What Steinmeyer has written is an important document, but I think access should have been limited. This is being marketed as a book for the general public, no way is it that! That said--who will buy this? Hard to imagine the casual browser in B&N picking this up. It's not going to teach you how to be the life of the party, and really for anyone outside magic, who the heck is Alan Wakeling? So, my summary: it shouldn't be in B&N; I should owe Wakeling's estate $64; in reality I doubt much practical harm was done in terms of exposure; but, in principle, I think the harm here is that Steinmeyer has not set a good example with this, and others might think twice before allowing him to document their work in the future. Jack Shalom
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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edh Inner circle 4698 Posts |
Quote:
I think the harm here is that Steinmeyer has not set a good example with this, and others might think twice before allowing him to document their work in the future. I don't think they would have to think twice. Not even once.
Magic is a vanishing art.
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Jazz Veteran user Mexico City 377 Posts |
Well, to have magic books on stores or public libraries or the internet for that matter is just normal. With the many different options available, only those who are really interest in magic will look for them.
If magic books were available only on magic or specialty stores, then the passing of the tradition would be on a very smaller scale. I say if someone has the interest and has gone through the problem of finding the magic books, then if he learns some secrets good for him. It´s a start. Remmebr when you started learning your very first secrets? More often than not was at the public library. One who is really interested will go further. On the other hand, the curious bystander more often than not, will stop the process of looking through. Now, having said that, mass exposure through internet is completely a different topic. One that should be frowned upon. |
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edh Inner circle 4698 Posts |
Quote:
If magic books were available only on magic or specialty stores, then the passing of the tradition would be on a very smaller scale. Jazz, the passing of the tradition on a smaller scale would, in my opinion, place more valuable on the art of magic. It would raise the standard of magicians in the public eye. It would also raise the standard of living for magicians as there would be fewer magicians that would be available.
Magic is a vanishing art.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
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On 2006-12-14 18:22, edh wrote: Stop saying what I am about too.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jazz Veteran user Mexico City 377 Posts |
Well, you have a good point there. However for young kids that are just starting to get to know the art, wouldn´t the public library be a good place to start?
Still today the supply of magic books in general bookstores is fairly limited. If you really wanted to get the more advanced books, you´d have to go through "offical" channels like specialty stores or specialty websites. |
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-12-14 20:12, Jazz wrote: You wouldn't call The Magic of Alan Wakeling a more advanced book? |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
?? Look at the dover magic books. From Hofzinser to Hugard and Braue there is some serious stuff there.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jazz Veteran user Mexico City 377 Posts |
Of course I do. But that would be more the exception than the rule. You would have to know exactly what are you looking for to find such a gem.
Maybe it should be up to the author or editor where his books can be sold? Still, I don´t think it works that way. The publisher will want to sell as many books, not really caring where. |
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Suppo Regular user Indianapolis 101 Posts |
As Johnathan just mentioned, how many more sleights does one need that are not in a Dover book? There are a few, but not many. Erdnase is a Dover book. Rope Magic? Original encyclopedia is a Dover book. Mark Wilson's book is a tremendous book for anyone. Several Annemann titles are available publicly. All are available from Barnes and Noble. To be able to put a good act together, you need nothing more in terms of method. Granted other authors only found through a dealer will give you more ideas, but a good show, you need nothing more.
Define beginning magic and advanced magic. Is a DL beginner? Someone should tell Harry Lorayne. Complexity? Guess Ted Annemann had it all wrong. Whit's linking ring routine used by Copperfield? Surely not! It is such a basic routine, after all. Magic is magic, it is what the audience gets if you perform any of these tricks well and in the course of a routine. It is no more beginner or advanced than the performer, individually. I own the Alan book. Read it from cover to cover. I saw some routines in there but they were written in such a way as to explain Alan's take on magic as a performance art. The whole book explains his evolution as a magician from beginner to club, to developer, to stage, to top professional. It discusses his influences and his necessities. That is what I got out of the book. It is not a book I would buy to use as an instruction manual, but I would buy it again for the biography. |
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Jazz Veteran user Mexico City 377 Posts |
Suppo, good points. For example, Hiding the Elephant is a great book for history and the evolution of magic. Not so much a how to manual.
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
Hey Suppo: Just curious - tell me WHAT? HARRY LORAYNE.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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Suppo Regular user Indianapolis 101 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-12-15 23:35, Harry Lorayne wrote: Ha sir. Tell you that a DL is a move only for beginners. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
A beginner can get through the actions. It usually takes much more work to make the actions go by as unremarkable.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Suppo Regular user Indianapolis 101 Posts |
Or have a context for the move (i.e. an actual performance or routine or whatever we agreed to call it) other than just as a trick. Very true. However the moves are still learned as essential when a beginner. What you hopefully learn as you go along and continue to develop is to turn those sleights and tricks into magic.
Man, was going to edit my reply to Mr. Lorayne and also publicly say thanks for the wonderful books he has written but couldn't edit it. |
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