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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Incarnum PK Ring - Another Rip-Off? (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Tom Bartlett
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My question is: Are you stating that if someone finds a way to improve a long used magic trick, gimmick or illusion with different mechanics then it’s new and original OR is it being stated that no mater how you arrive at the same results it is not OK and is a copie and is unethical?.

For example;, Ann Eva Fay’s has the earliest Dancing Handkerchief, then Joe Karson’s "Voodoo." http://home.comcast.net/~crosewl/photos.htm his version Dancing Handkerchief, then there is Don Wayne’s and Sean Bogunia’s Dancing Hank. So how knocked of who and how?
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I apologize for my editing, what I meant write; So who knocked of who and how?
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Joe Karson Invented the "Zombi ball" does that mean that every body that sells a "Zombie Ball" unethical and a ripoff. Dirk Losander's and Tommy Wonders “Floating Table” is based on the same mechanics. Are they ripoffs?
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ClouDsss
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Quote:
On 2006-05-25 16:16, smoothassilk wrote:
My question is: Are you stating that if someone finds a way to improve a long used magic trick, gimmick or illusion with different mechanics then it’s new and original OR is it being stated that no mater how you arrive at the same results it is not OK and is a copie and is unethical?.

For example;, Ann Eva Fay’s has the earliest Dancing Handkerchief, then Joe Karson’s "Voodoo." http://home.comcast.net/~crosewl/photos.htm his version Dancing Handkerchief, then there is Don Wayne’s and Sean Bogunia’s Dancing Hank. So how knocked of who and how?


I am no expert when it comes to ethics but it seems that a lot of products with regards to magic is not protected by the law directly and will only be governed by the ethics of the producers themselves.

In the case where someone uses a similar or same model with improvements and innovations, the least he could do is perhaps email the originators for either permission to use their model or at least inform them with a proper discussion. How it works out here, will really then depend. For example in books, you credit those that you obtain the ideas from or if you are using a handling created by someone else, you mention them and do not claim it to be your own original or unique handling.

Since this thread is about this ring, lets use it as an example for what I meant above:

In the case of this new ring being released, the design is blatantly the same, and the material used, is more or less the same. For one, there doesn't seem to be much improvements or no improvements at all (unless proven otherwise). For another reason, it would NOT have been released if the Wizard PK had not been successful. To me, differences in names does not improve nor make an item unique.

It would be safe to mention that the creators of this new ring did not have such an idea nor concept should Wizard PK not be released and prove successful. In magic, everyday objects and actions can be used to perform miracles. Hence, we sometimes kick ourselves when an effect with an extremely normal or easy handling is released

"Why dint I think of that!!" etc etc. But it doesn't change the fact that someone did and they noticed that this can be used. Hence, released an effect. (It can be good or bad, but still, its someone's original idea of something that no one else came up with.) Any others following suit and claiming that its the natural handling and way to do things, hence releasing the same effect under another name will most probably be rip offs. These 'rippers' forget (or ignore) the fact that they would never have thought of it if it was not released by others first to claim otherwise would hardly be credible.

From the disccsions at the other forum you would understand that it seems ethics meant nothing to this guy/gal and he released it due to the success of the Wizard PK Ring. Most prob with the money involved here, unless he is running a charitable organisation (Which in this case, has to be registered as one with no profits whatsoever) Why would any businessman (assuming he is sane) release something unless it proves profitable? Hence, this is most probably the works of a unscrupulous businessman trying to earn some money by ignoring all other concerns, as long as its still legal, release it. If you see, he released an imitation to Joe Porper's Card Clip too. I highly doubt card clips HAVE to look like that, with the curves and turns.

It seem most certainly that this person has no ideas of his own and hence, everything else is a simple take and duplication, claiming that he works form the ground up. I have to say I don believe in such conincidences.

In the case of the floating table, I am no expert, but I do believe in Tommy's works and integrity that he is not taking the exact same mechanics with the exact handling and thus duplicating a successful effect (reputation plays a part here I guess). Basing a creation on something is not wrong if the correct people are contacted and have been discussed with, provided that changes are made for improvements.

For Zombie ball, I believe that there is still considerable differences or improvements to the routine.

Hope this clears the air a bit. Hopefully I am not too far wrong with my statements above. Smile
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Tom Bartlett
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ClouDsss worte "Hope this clears the air a bit. Hopefully I am not too far wrong with my statements above."

Sorry, I’m still confused may be more so. Are you saying it depends on who is doing the coping?
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On 2006-05-25 18:35, smoothassilk wrote:
ClouDsss worte "Hope this clears the air a bit. Hopefully I am not too far wrong with my statements above."

Sorry, I’m still confused may be more so. Are you saying it depends on who is doing the coping?



No No, if you read my post above, its basically how they approach in the manufacturing process.

2 major things should be

1) Improvements or innovations (meaning differences)
2) The originators (Meaning those first to release the product) must be discussed with first.

For example, You can write a book with borrowed sleights. If you do not credit anyone at all but claim that those sleights are yours (by renaming them) and that they are unique, the magic community will judge you and your stuff will most probably be a rip off. However, it is not illegal to do so as the law does not protect such material so its about ethics mainly.

However, if you were to write the book and seek permission to include stuff from their originators, crediting them properly, then it would not be a rip off.

When I answered your concerns about Tommy Wonder, I mentioned that I trusted his reputation as an inventor. He has a reputation of coming up with his own effects (or rather, work to improve an old effect) Hence, leading me to the conclusion that his flying table effect routine will have improvements and not just a duplicate (Since I do not have the effect, it was made based on his reputation of NOT ripping others) But of course, if he just made a duplicate, he might be deemed still to have ripped off someone (I hardly doubt Tommy would do that tho). It would be good if you read his books of wonders and his views on magic, etc

For example again, Ghost Kings, the moves resembles Lee Asher's Twisting the aces. Many feel that its a rip off due to the fact that Lee Asher was never consulted and the DVD was neither an improvement on his effect (even if it was, they should have consulted him first) nor there were any differences. However, it is Legal for them to release it as the law did not cover Asher's sleights against such acts.

Hence, I mentioned that it all boils down to ethics within the magic community, or rather, in many aspects of life too.

In the example of the rings, the new ring looks the same, does the same stuff, and does not seem to have improvements (despite the claim of 3 times stronger which has yet to be proven scientifically). In addition, the original group of makers that released the first Wizard was not consulted. Hence, that to me, and hopefully the majority, feel that that's constitutes to a rip off product, despite the claim that it is unqiue (I don understnad how its unqiue as it seems like a simple take of other's ideas under a different name).

In addition, for both cases, Ghost kings and the new ring, they would not have been released if the original effects were not successful.

Furthermore, claiming that such products or effects has to be designed this way or sleights have to be performed in the same manner is a total bullS*** and only further confirms their inability to create and only copy

Is this clearer?
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Tom Bartlett
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Yes, it is, but I wonder how many magi agree all the time. This all reminds of a story I heard as a young, I don’t recall the source but it goes like this.

A preacher is giving a sermon on vice. First he talks about alcohol. There on the front row sat a little old woman and she say A-MEN. Next the preacher talks about swearing, again the little woman says A-MEN. The preacher keeps going trough one vice after and each time the little woman say A-MEN finally the preacher talks about tobacco the little woman says nothing and gets a bitter look on her face and then the preacher see a dribble of brown juice caused by snuff.

I do hope you see the point.
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ClouDsss
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There is nothing wrong with disagreements Smile

No offence, but I do not understand what you are trying to put across with that example
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Tom Bartlett
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To explain, it’s not just this one thread, but it is still on topic. From reading so many post on this subject. It seems that the ones that complain the most are guilty of the same or at least other ethical violations. But there they are, saying A-MEN until they are call out. A magnet in a ring, on a ring, or made into a ring is not a new idea, it has be used in industry for quite some time now.
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Quote:
On 2006-05-26 12:49, smoothassilk wrote:
To explain, it’s not just this one thread, but it is still on topic. From reading so many post on this subject. It seems that the ones that complain the most are guilty of the same or at least other ethical violations. But there they are, saying A-MEN until they are call out. A magnet in a ring, on a ring, or made into a ring is not a new idea, it has be used in industry for quite some time now.


I personally feel that it is safe to make the statement that no one is without sin. However, does this make it wrong for humans to feel strongly against some particualar vice?

What happen if I have never murdered a living creature in my life but have stolen something from a shop. Does this make it wrong for me to be against murders and that my act of stealing takes away my right to point out how morally wrong it is to commit murder? How would life be if all murderers argue on the basis that everyone else has committed something that violates ethics and hence, they are not wrong to do so too, or that pointing them out is wrong as no one has the right to do so? This would mean that the jury of court handling murder cases (or any other cases for that matter) to be one consisting of people who have never violated ethics in anyway in their lives. Is this possible? Should all crimes hence go unchecked then?

No offence to your interpretation of your quote above. However, on re-reading it and with regards to your explaination, I personally view that your quote with the lady saying A-MEN would be more accurately interpreted as an example to encourage self-improvement. To me, its an example of "how easy it is to point out other people's faults. So hence, why not start with your own?"

I personally do not interpret it as chastising people for complaining as they themselves commited sins too. And to me, it is not talking about how people who have violated ethics one way or the other should not be critising others. Maybe I am wrong with this interpretation, but then, its just me.

In the case of this ring (please do not be mistaken here as in a whole, I am not targeting the ring only. Its on all rip off products. I am only citing the ring as an example due to the title of this thread), it is true that such rings have been used in other industries. But then, certain magic sleights or gimmicks are also used in many other industries other than magic or also in everyday life. Double Si*** tape, ma*****, Ropes, weighing machine forms of electronics, etc etc. However, it is the application that it is being used here and manufactured for that purpose that we should respect. Hole in the Head by Ben Harris uses something that is an everyday object. Does it make it right for someone to create the same effect, under a different name? Yes maybe, as it might be legal, but is it ethical? No, period.

For example, David Copperfield's flying act. Why was he able to protect it in the face of the law? He uses items that have been in use for many many years and have been invented many years ago and are also used in other industries. I believe this is due to it being an original usage and the items are utilised for an original routine (at least in the eyes of the law where I believe he has the rights to sue anyone who performs such an effect).


To quote from above by Tim Tronowith regards to the ring:

"I think it IS clear that magnetic rings have been out well before the Wizard PK Ring... MasteRing by John Altpeter, Elohim Ring, and even MUCH earlier in a ring by Emerson and West. What the original PK Wizard Ring offers that DIFFERS from the prior items noted above is that the Wizard PK Ring IS the magnet or visa versa. This IS their creation period. In my opinion this allows for more flexibility and versatility. If you change the strength, price, color, etc. it is, in my opinion, still the exact same thing and is not authorized.

Tim Trono"


So its basically them who thought of using the material to create such a ring and that they were the first ones to even think of making such a thing for magic, period.

If you had thought of a noble invention by using some everyday item and utilise it in a magical effect, then you would have an original invention with regards to magic. I and whoever that is ethical, would respect that and not attempt to duplicate it with the argument that you have also violated other ethical aspects in life.
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Tom Bartlett
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Are you going to change the subject? Murder and theft are punishable by law, so is pirating. We are talking about ethics, if making and selling this ring is illegal, then take them to Court and win the case. There is an entire division of our law enforcement that deals with pirated goods.

As to what Tim Trono wrote, discovery maybe, creation no way.
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I am not going to change the subject. What I am inerpreting about the story which you gave is not wrong in anywhere.

I am merely giving an example when you are refering to ethics. It is not wrong to mention that murder and theft are punishable by law. However, it is also punishable due to moral wrongs and unethical conduct, unless you wish to feel that there is nothing unethical or immoral about those 2 actions.

For magic, we forget that inventors can obtain a patent or a copyright. Just that the process is tedious and expensive. Hence, most forgo such approaches and hence protection. If that's the case, it is not that pirating or imitations of designs are not punishable by law, but are just chosen by the inventors or creators not to be protected.

Yes, you may argue that that is their downfall, but what I am covering here is ethics, and that if you were to insist on ethics involving only stuff that are illegal, please do not forget that designs or creations for that matter can also be protected too if the people decided to pay or register it.

Regardless of inventions or creations, we have to note that designs can be protected by either patents or trademarks.

I guess we have to agree to disagree. We have both stated our stand about such products and hence, its for the consumer to read and judge for themselves. To go further would be trying to impose our views on them, which is incorrect. Just like how many have judged Magic Makers and hence whencefore they obtained their results. Perhaps at least a minority of the community (or majority) feels that despite not punishable by law, they agree that many items released are perhaps imitations. You may wish to differ and its really ok.

Another example, Ghost Kings vs Asher Twist. Ethical? Illegal? To me, I interprete as unethical but not illegal. how about linking mints? Same interpretation.

In ethics, the line is very thin. There is nothing wrong with your interpretation and there is also nothing wrong with mine. As found in the MMF which I have read and do agree. Rape is not a severe crime in some countries and may not be that properly covered by the law. The victim is the one that is ostracised. So in that country, is rape legal? Ethical? To me, its unethical and should be illegal. But its just their way of life, its not for me to comment. And if you chose to bring in illegailty here, it will not work. Hence, would some interprete is as legal and ethical? Not too sure for such people tho.

How about discrimination? Its not illegal but to me, its unethical. immoral but then there are some they wish to think otherwise. Which is fine too since its their choice, and I have to respect it

No offence intended to you or anyone with my posts, but to continue and argue about ethics will lead to no where. let the consumers decide for themselves Smile

To end, I respect your interpretation, and hopefully, you respect mine too Smile Thanks!

PEACE OUT.
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Smoothassilk, "discovery" is probably a better word (thanks) but the Wizard PK guys did take this and have it specifically designed and made for magic (many of the "medical" items would not work- I won't go into the specifics as that is a whole other subject). The main point I was trying to convey is that they introduced this to the magic world. If they had not discovered it, I seriously doubt that most of the other like items would simply not be available in the magic world.

You mention, "take them to Court and win the case". Although in a perfect world this seems viable and reasonable, our word is just not perfect. It is very expensive and timely to bring someone to court especially if you hire an attorney. Proving the worth of one's damages is very difficult in such a niche market. Trying to sue someone a different state let alone a different country is very difficult. Then you have to ask yourself on top of this... "if I win, will I be able to collect the money or will they [offending party] even have the money". An ethical attorney will tell people to really consider whether it is worth a law suit.

You also raise an interesting point with "There is an entire division of our law enforcement that deals with pirated goods." Unfortunately the magic industry is not looked on as a major interest with all that is going on the world. I have in fact filed complaints with the FBI, etc. before on illegal duplication, etc. but it obviously takes a huge back seat to an already stretched band width for law enforcement with terrorism, computer crime, etc. The unfortunate reality of the situation is it will most likely be brushed away for what is considered more important things (and will obviously even take a back seat to illegal software duplication, illegal music duplication, etc.- all of which have MUCH MUCH more money involved and thus a bigger loss and a bigger push on enforcement).

ClouDess, interesting points. I think what really matters is ethics ... if we KNOW it is wrong (regardless of the laws) the one thing we can do is put pressure by not supporting the rips offs. Bottom line is if a producer making rip offs is not making money and if they feel it will hurt sales of future legitimate releases they put out, the rip off won't last long.

Also we can't force someone to do the right thing... we can only "keep our own house clean". And to me that means not supporting a rip off even if it is cheaper, more readily available, etc.

Tim
Tom Bartlett
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It seems you think we disagree, not so. The point I’m still trying to make, is that every Magic seller, that sell the "Zombi Ball" should stop selling it, pay Joe Karson's family royalty or stop pointing the finger at others.
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Quote:
On 2006-05-27 03:24, Tim Trono wrote:
ClouDess, interesting points. I think what really matters is ethics ... if we KNOW it is wrong (regardless of the laws) the one thing we can do is put pressure by not supporting the rips offs. Bottom line is if a producer making rip offs is not making money and if they feel it will hurt sales of future legitimate releases they put out, the rip off won't last long.



You are right Tim, if we feel that an item is a rip off, we should just stop supporting it.

Ethics was never solely about law and punishability (sorry, don think that there is such a word) Punishable = Unethical and Unpunishable = ethical is something which I do not feel describes ethics. However, I respect others' decisions should they feel otherwise too as this is a free world Smile

Cheers!
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I read a lot of posts here but seldom make any. But what the heck, since one of our products has been implicated in the post in association with the Incarnum, I figured I¡¦d take a moment.

We brought out a new ring set because we wanted to. It is that simple. People had said they wanted something different, so we found a way to do that. Ours is ¡§new¡¨ in the sense that it is shaped differently (as much as a ¡§ring¡¨ can be) and we have more alternative finishes and a secondary material.

Our engineer has also compared the gauss ratings of ours vs other brands on the market and found ours to be significantly stronger than several of them. Well, except for the Onyx version we make.

We not only produce gold and silver, but also nickel, chrome, and one made of Onyx with two different designs ¡V smooth and etched. The nickel and chrome do not tarnish as easily as the sterling silver plating and whilst the Onyx isn¡¦t as strong as neodymium iron boron, it is a wonderful addition that nobody has done so far.

The standard in terms of a product should not entirely be based on ¡§who came up with it first¡¨ but what you as the end user gets. Yes, there are ethical considerations but in this case there are none.

The Wizard PK Ring was NOT the first all neodymium ring produced as jewelry and Tim knows that all to well; we have discussed it at length. The fact is, Jim did not, in any shape or fashion, ¡§invent¡¨ this ¡§type¡¨ of ring. Had he done so, we would not have been so wiling to compete.

What¡¦s that? It¡¦s not fair! Originality you claim? The fact is that the Alternative Medical Community invented these. While meaning well, Tim only briefly touched on it. Why? Because it destroys the ¡§illusion¡¨ that these were invented by Jim or someone else and therefore they are being ¡§ripped¡¨ off. If you really took the time to do your homework you would quickly find that at least 1/3 of magic products are copies of copies. But that is for another post at another time.

I am happy to go toe-to-toe with anyone so long as the discussion is based on sound reasoning and facts, not speculation, conjecture, and emotion. Sure, some will continue to spout wisdom on the topic but frankly, they do not know what they are talking about.

For example: there are two main types of magnets out there¡Xbipolar and unipolar. Do these ¡§experts¡¨ know the difference between them without popping over to Google? Do they understand depth of penetration these rings have? Have they personally conducted tests with an MSM-7 or similar device to assure that the surface field of strength and that depth assure that the ring will be effective? Do they even know who Lester Moskowitz is? Do they have an engineer on their staff who is also a full-fledged professor at a major university who has been in this industry for over 30 years? For that matter, have they honestly COMPARED the rings, the designs, and so on? Doubt it.

But hey, this is America so you can say what you want (within certain limitations). We welcome it. Heck, I would even fight for your right to do so. We whole heartedly support the First Amendment, so talk this up as much as you like. Good, bad, or indifferent.

But in the case of saying which is better, most of what we are dealing with here is what people think and they haven¡¦t even compared the two (or more as the case may be since we have a greater selection anyway). One of our customers just sent this email today:

¡§I gotta tell you, your product looks a heck of a lot more like a "real" ring. The Wizard Ring looks suspicious / not a "typical" simple band-style ring. [T]hanks for offering an improved and thoughtful design on the product.¡¨

EVERYBODY has opinions.

In our rings, aside from measurable aesthetic improvements, we have science behind us. Our rings are not only excellent in quality they are less expensive because we have the money, support, and know-how to produce them that way.

But in fairness, in the case of the Wizard PK ring, they live in the United Kingdom. Our business¡¦ sustainability is not based on the British Pound and therefore we are not forced to inflate prices to sustain our vitality and competitiveness in that economy.

If you knew the ins and outs of this you would understand why we CAN sell ours for a lower price and it isn¡¦t because ours are poorer quality. Such assertions are not only ignorant, they are just plain laughable.

Here¡¦s the deal, you can preach all day long about ethics here, but we did nothing wrong. If the arguments were anything other than conjecture and speculation about gauss ratings, design originality, et cetra, then I might have not chimed in at all.

Our engineer and the manufactures we deal with have spent the last decade developing, designing, marketing, and selling magnetic rings to those who believe that magnets have healing properties. Period. Go do the research online and you will quickly realize this.

As business people we capitalized on a few things here by bringing our ring versions to the magic market: 1.) The R&D of the alternative health community; 2.) the growing popularity of PK rings, due in large part recently to the guys who market the Wizard PK ring; and 3.) the desire of many magicians to have an alternative product that more accurately resembles non-flat-band-style wedding rings and a slightly lower price without compromising quality, workmanship, or indeed customer service. We have done that.

Some people find that inappropriate. To them I say this: when you live what you preach you will be taken much more seriously. If we took that line of thought to its logical conclusion we would never have competition in the world. Everyone would still be driving Ford automobiles with merely average designs and standards of production. We¡¦d all look to Bayer for Aspirin (generics would never exist); you wouldn¡¦t be sitting in a pair of jeans made by Lucky¡¦s, Calvin, or FUBU because Levis would still own the market they had created in San Francisco during the Gold Rush.

Just because (and that is not the case here) someone comes up with it first does not necessarily mean that it will be the best or for that matter, be what YOU need for you. There are hundreds of thousands of case examples in business for that and also in your own life.

It is not only hypocritical in nature to suggest that we have been unethical (or acted in an illegal way) but it is also demonstrates a myopic view of economics and free trade¡Xone of the corner-stones of our republic. Competition results in better standards, better production, and lends to economy of scale.

Who benefits from this? You do.

If you want to say that our ring is of less quality in terms of material and design, you are welcome to do so. But your case is far more compelling if you have both rings in your possession and have compared them against legitimate standards without bias.

If you LEGITIMATELY want to review them and want to be honest about what you find, then I will personally send you a ring. So far people are voting with their checkbooks and most people love the fact that we have a three point guarantee: if anytime in one year you want to return our ring¡Xfor any reason whatsoever¡Xyou can do so for a full refund. Secondly, if you gain weight or lose weight and the ring no longer fits, return it to us and we will replace it for the right size. And finally, if it breaks, we will send you a NEW ONE.

What Jim (From Wizard PK) did was bring a decent product to the market first by crossing over into the magic community; he did not invent a magnet ring. Neither did we! We just improved on it.

If this all upsets you, then vote with your conscious. No big deal. That is great and we applaud you. Seriously. But we are not going to stop selling them simply because other magicians do not agree with you and they are buying in the droves, other shops are asking for accounts, and the largest toy company in the US is about to sign a massive deal. Why? Because it is business. That is how it works.

Oh, and for those of you who say we have no originality, read this post:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=109

You simply can¡¦t please everyone, but we are doing a great job of pleasing plenty of magicians out there so far and we are new to the scene. It will only get better!

I welcome anyone of you to call me on my dime to discuss it if you like. All I ask is you play nice. ļ

Regards,

James Clark, MBA
Black¡¦s Magic Group, Inc.
equivoque
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Well put James

OK, I have neither the time nor the energy to go through this whole post but people, please get a life! It is a ring that is a magnet! Haven't about a dozen of these *** things been marketed? What about the kling ring? Oh what because the entire ring is a Neodymium magnet it is an entirely new idea? Give me a fcuking break.

Here are some real questions:

Which ring can I wear 24/7 without damaging my laptop?

Anyone tried the Maven Effect “Power Drain”?

Look some items are most definitely an “invention” while other “concepts” such as a magnetic ring cannot really be claimed as original one-of-a-kind idea.

This is sort of like saying, “the concept behind “Free Will” was invented by…” When in fact, we all know that the concept has been around for a while and was used in effects such as Visa Cabarete.

Start asking yourself what effects can be performed with this ring and let the ethics issue go on this one.

Now excuse me while I decide who I should send a royalty check to because I am using a Lippincott box as a prediction chest!

Wait Tannens has one in black metal, Joe Porper has one (the strong box) and ….

Answer: Lippincott, Jack
Magician who invented the Lippincott Box, a small padlocked box from which a previously-vanished coin is produced. I am certain that his estate is receiving raoyalty checks from many magicians!
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Profile of jclark
I would NOT suggest using our rings around ANYTHING that stores electronic media. Laptop hard drives, USB thumb drives, cell phones, crdit cards, hotel key cards, etc. Bad things happen like erasing your MBA thesis. Though the key card is a GREAT trick to pull on people when you are in, say, LV.

You tell someone you can erase key cards and you put the one they have been given up against your head and say, "There. It is done." Nothing happened they could see. They are not impressed. You move on to something else. It gets a good laugh. Then when they walk to the room, it will not work. They then remember what happened and have to walk all the way down stairs to get it fixed. That kind of thing spreads big time.

I did it at a trade show and people walked up to me and asked me to do it for them because they had heard about it from others. Funny as heck.

Got the idea from Richard Osterlind who is a great guy.

James
SBogunia
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Niles MI
42 Posts

Profile of SBogunia
No one alive can say they came up with PK magic stuff. Even if it is a different magnet.Magnetic ring tricks have been with us for over 100 years....
ClouDsss
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1799 Posts

Profile of ClouDsss
Quote:
On 2006-05-29 00:44, SBogunia wrote:
No one alive can say they came up with PK magic stuff. Even if it is a different magnet.Magnetic ring tricks have been with us for over 100 years....


And it is only after a hundred years someone creative decides to make a ring using neo-****** to make PK effects easier.
Think outside the box, cos people are all thinking inside now!! - ClouDsss
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