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kj3 New user Ireland 22 Posts |
Ive kinda had a step back in performing magic now for the last few years, but maybe its just me, but there seems to be a sudden shift (within the last few months) in the future of magic. due to the popularity of 'theory' books (Absolute Magic, Strong Magic etc.), the effects and general creative process seems to have improved dramatically.
commercial names such as derren brown, david blaine, andy garcia (and many others) have really 'UPed' the standard of our art. last night there, iwatched the new blaine show - a visual ripped and restored tooth effect...thats pretty funky! magicians and magic thinkers are coming up with bigger and better magic that reflects our own culture and society. effects are becoming more and more impossible and therefore the magic world is becoming so much more bloody competitive! but that's good!! and with the intrduction of Harris' dvds soon and many other new, young thinkers, our magic is going beyond "magic" as we know it, evolving into a new, rawer artform that is beyond imagination. just cant wait to see whats next... any thoughts? x
"You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star"
- Nietzsche |
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
I'm impressed by the 'new' thinkers and performers and am curious to see where it leads.
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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts |
Well, one place it will lead is to newer and stranger places where you can lose your money on effects that you will never perform, that seems rather certain. When a recent release came out, I was all hot and bothered about it, thinking, "Oh boy! I can do this and really fry my client's brains!" Then I found out about all of the restrictions that limited the effect:
You have to do it outdoors. The sun has to be at a certain angle. The volunteer has to be wearing a certain something. It cannot be performed using artificial light without bringing into question the entire effect. It only works within certain latitudes, geographically. Get the idea? Yet the ADS stated that it was the most nearly perfect magic effect ever created nd the endorsements read likewise. Honestly, one has to wonder about how those endorsements were edited or how they were obtained. And that is NO slam on anyone who endorsed the product. I question the copywriter's on this one, not the people who said Good Things about it. Some of the creative thinkers are going SO far out in their thinking that they are moving into the realms of "not just difficult to perform," but "it would take an act of deity for it to work!" This is not to say that some creative thinkers aren't going into areas that are new and fertile, indeed - no siree! But, as usual, Sturgeon's Law still applies. Caveat Emptor. Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I am not sure what the magic BOOM if you will is going to do for anyone but the magic creators.
I am with Lee. Deceptive ads, which I allow for having been arround for a long time, nonsense tricks where you turn over 9 cards as if they were one and things like this can not really help anyone can they>? Magic has become a big business. PERIOD. All the bad things that come with that are comming along. It is about money. Selling the effect. Guys are selling books who have been in it for maybe 6 years. Lectures by people doing magic for maybe 4. It is sad to me. I am not sure where it will lead. BUT then again many guys just want to buy the next new gadget. They want new things and new ways to do things. So if this is their goal, then how wrong is it to fill that market? So if you ask me these questions have many sides and no real answers.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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RandyStewart Inner circle Texas (USA) 1989 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-05-28 16:24, kj3 wrote: "Our"?! You know my culture and my experiences? What? I suppose you could be right if you're from Mars. Quote:
effects are becoming more and more impossible and therefore the magic world is becoming so much more bloody competitive! but that's good!! And this has never been seen before? Quote:
and with the intrduction of Harris' dvds soon and many other new, young thinkers, our magic is going beyond "magic" as we know it, evolving into a new, rawer artform that is beyond imagination. Well thank the Lord for these fellows. I mean with promise of, as you say, "going beyond "magic" as we know it" and "evolving into a rawer artform that is beyond imagination". I think I just may give up magic for a few months to learn from these fellows. By the way, who the hell is Harris? Are you talking about Ben Harris? I mean forget what the GREATS in magic taught a century ago. No, no, no...this sounds like a winner! Forget what magic and magicians did in the past this smells like a sweet revolution never before seen! Does this movement have a newsletter or group that meets weekly say at a Dennys? Lee Darrow put it best and most direct: "Well, one place it will lead is to newer and stranger places where you can lose your money on effects that you will never perform, that seems rather certain." A favorite little tune of mine says it this way: "Don't smell the flowers - their an evil drug to make you loose your mind" - Dio |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
The glut of well intended verbiage makes good reading practice.
Theory is useful for exploring situations in LIVE -reality. Beyond that it tends to get inbred and we get linguistic baggage without practical benefit. For example, we continue to see the term 'misdirection' used in this field, even after the linguistic frame for such things was destroyed back in the late 1970s. The nominalization stands as a living monument to the ignorance of many in our craft. That some here don't know what the term 'nominalization' means gives a measure of how far we have to go in our basic education. Still on the 'theory' side, we are doing better coming to terms with the notion of 'frame of reference'. The idea was stamped into our cultural reality in 1905 and yet has not been placed as a cornerstone of our craft and literature. Only a century behind on that one. Folks, beyond the speed reading practice, we have a long way to go with our basics. How far do you want to go?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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RandyStewart Inner circle Texas (USA) 1989 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-05-28 20:45, Dannydoyle wrote: Don't be sadened and most importantly, don't support. Posted: May 28, 2006 9:36pm --------------------------------------------------- Quote:
On 2006-05-28 16:24, kj3 wrote: What's next has already been done. It just wears a different dress. Turn the pages BACK and look at the History of Magic, this practice is performed by humans for humans and they inherently get off on repeating their own history. Oh do they ever get off on it. Check it out for yourself. I'm not trying to trick you or sell you anything. Hell! I don't even know your name. If you did choose to 'smell the flowers and loose your mind', be warned, I didn't try to sell you what was already there and FREE for the taking, by the masters, but someone else has sold you just that for your $ and mind. |
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RandyStewart Inner circle Texas (USA) 1989 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-05-28 16:24, kj3 wrote: What's next has already been done. It just wears a different dress. Turn the pages BACK and look at the History of Magic, this practice is performed by humans for humans and they inherently get off on repeating their own history. Oh do they ever get off on it. Check it out for yourself. I'm not trying to trick you or sell you anything. Hell! I don't even know your name. If you did choose to 'smell the flowers and loose your mind', be warned, I didn't try to sell you what was already there and FREE for the taking, BY THE MASTERS, but someone else has sold you just that for your $ and mind. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-05-28 21:36, RandyStewart wrote:... Gee Randy couldn't you have said "pants" How high are hemlines this year? Some of us look horrible in dresses. "It's the same old thing in brand new drag comes sweeping into view" A good line from "Teenage Wildlife" by David Bowie.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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RandyStewart Inner circle Texas (USA) 1989 Posts |
OK, I managed to get back on my chair.
God! You're Good! Hahahahahahaha! And a better title for this topic would have been your mentioned: "It's the same old thing in brand new drag comes sweeping into view" |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-05-28 16:24, kj3 wrote: I think that Blaine is certainly generating a great amount of interest, but I wouldn't say "upping the standard" of the art. He's best known, AFAIK, for camera-assisted levitations, a mis-named "2-card monte," and a variety of endurance stunts. Obviously, he's doing SOMETHING right, and his live performances generate interest and strong reactions; when I see newly interested-in-magic younger magicians starting out, though, and they think Blaine is the be-all, end-all, and names such as Michael Skinner are meaningless to them, I don't think it's a good thing. BUT...some of those new magicians will do the research into the art...look for and at some of the big names, what made them successful, etc., and "stand on the shoulders of giants." Generating a ton of interest does two things: It elevates performance at the top end, and it lowers it at the bottom end. This is natural; most things follow the bell curve. A larger population generally means the best are better, and the worst aren't as good. Creating interest only generates potential elevation of the art. Some people will realize that potential, and others won't.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts |
To my way of thinking, which I have been told isn't all that much of a muchness at times, one area that magicians really need to look at magic is in their actual stagecraft and theatricality.
I wince every time Chriss Angel opens his mouth. Not because he isn't a talented magician, but because of his poor pronunciation and diction. His elocution simply is NOT up to what a stage performer's should be. Unfortunately, I hear the same painful sounds emanating from the mouths of far too many other magi as well - I am not just picking on Chriss, who I hold in high esteem for his successes on stage and TV. Out of curiosity, how many magicians out there have actually taken ANY kind of professional voice training at all? And I do NOT mean Speech 101 in college, but something more advanced, including diction, elocution, script reading, voice over training, singing lessons (from a profesional singing teacher), oratory or acting lessons (and not just community theater, Puh-leeze!)? Having actually won awards for my singing in high school and been sent on full scholarship to State Music Camp for vocalists on two occasions and having had voice coaching hroughout my high school and college years, as well as having done professional radio, I can honestly say that I do have the background to make comments on this issue. If magicians REALLY want to improve their performances, they can start with HOW they SAY WHAT THEY SAY! Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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kregg Inner circle 1950 Posts |
"The same thing, only different."
POOF!
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CasualSoul Special user Edmonton, Canada 542 Posts |
I totally agree with Dan and Lee and I think this is why places like the Café become ever increasingly important.
One of the things the Café community allows us to do is share our experiences as magic consumers in order to reward the makers of great products and punish the makers of crap. Not that it's always one extreme or the other either; Hole In The Head is a great example of a piece of magic that I almost bought until I learned its limitations here. Not that I think it's a bad effect, but it doesn't fit anywhere in any of my routines and would have been a waste of money for me. Thank-You Café!! : With respect to what Dan was saying about lowered performance quality on the bottom end of the growing magic community, I agree that this is an unavoidable result, but the knowledge sharing that happens in communities like the Café becomes ever more important as it may help minimize this to a degree. Preserving our secrets and the integrity of our art is in everyones best interests. Evolution is a natural thing and although I think it's ridiculous to say that the quality of our art has recently been increasing (which is an entirely subjective matter), I do agree that creativity seems to be gaining a little momentum.....but it's a little deceptive. Many of the "new" things out there are really just repackaged or slightly modified versions of very old effects. Of the genuinely new things that are out there, you could say that it's because of guys like Blaine and Angel, but I disagree. Although the magic community is growing because of the events Blaine put in motion, the rate of magic innovation hasn't increased by much over the years as far as I can tell. If it really has though, I propose that any increase in magic innovation can largely be attributed to globalization, brought about through technology, which is fostering an increase in creative collaboration. If correct, then this is just the beginning and kj3 may be justified with his enthusiastic anticipation.
"Open their mind by performing the impossible"
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Lee I have been hollering about that from special one with Criss.
And almost any magician you can name. The problem is we are a performance art in which the "performance" part is almost totally ignored by the vast majority of our contingent. It drives me absolutly nuts. To think you can do comedy simply by buying a comedy magic trick is idiotic. Don't get me started!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Tonality is one of the first things one explores in NLP.
Then congruence.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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kregg Inner circle 1950 Posts |
When I first charged into a magic shop and perused through the pages of magic catalogues; books on magic were rare.
Today, there are probably more books on card magic than there were on the entire subject of magic then. Sadly, one does not have to dig to hit pay dirt - methods are given so freely and easily, the value of secrets are being lost.
POOF!
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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts |
I know that I'm preaching to the converted when I'm talking to you on this, Jonathan, but some of the newer readers who have not studied NLP and the more advanced communication models might find this informative.
Or wordy. However, NLP still puts the horse before the cart. NLP presupposes a command of the english language to a fairly high degree, yet I STILL hear a large number of NLP-ers saying things like "You're doing very good" and when challenged on this grooo faux pas, they say, "We don't say 'very well' because a well is a hole that someone goes down and that is a negative connotation to most people and we prefer not to use negative connotations in our work!" Which is utter bull. It is improper grammar. And, while the connotational statement is a wonderful smokescreen for covering one of Dickie Bandler's favorite verbal gaffes (Erickson even called him on it once, according to Dr. J. Adrian Williams, a friend of mine and student of Erickson's), it is still a smokescreen for a gaffe! The study of intonation and tonal control should come AFTER the study of pronunciation and diction, not to mention syntax and vocabulary. If one cannot correctly use and pronounce the words one is going to use, then tonality and intonation are not going to be all that helpful in their application. Being understood in a linguistic model requires, firstly, that the words being spoken be spoken correctly, in proper syntactictal context and with proper tonality for further meaning. Also, the words must be used properly with regard to their actual definitions. The words spoken are given further conversational context by the kinesthetic markers (body language) that the speaker uses thus creating the proper quadrilateral communicative output (as opposed to that god-awful coined term "4-tuple!")that composes a congruent message to the perceiver. Unfortunately, when B&G spoke with Chomsky, they missed large portions of his body of work (not to mention the rest of the linguistic community!) with regards to the basics of spoken communication and focused on tonality and the kniesthetic markers, as opposed to a more complete overview of the communicative process, which includes diction, pronunciation, syntax, verbal context and erudition. Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Tkurabbrevsandshuvem
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-05-30 02:56, Lee Darrow wrote:...a large number of NLP-ers saying things like "You're doing very good" and when challenged on this grooo faux pas, they say, "We don't say 'very well' because a well is a hole that someone goes down and that is a negative connotation to most people and we prefer not to use negative connotations in our work!"... Much less fuss to smile and say "Great". Simple congruent communication. For the moment, let's leave the virtues of rationalization and the horrors of intellectualization for Lovecraft fans owning a good thesaurus. Agreed that reading is fundamental and also that basic writing skills are required for scripting one's works. Is it sensible to suggest folks read Chomsky's On Language before seeking entertainment from the stand-up comic stylings of Richard Bandler? My feeling remains that someone already out there in the trenches performing would be better served by exploring tonality than by hunkering down to study grammar and getting introspective about their underlying messages.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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