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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Lets accept for a moment Whit's assersion that we "lie" to the audience. I don't really want to debate the semantics of the term. So OK we lie.
Then shouldn't the "lie" at the very least be believable? Take some Mind Freak stunts such as levitating a spectator surrounded. Things that CLEARLY even to the untrained eye are so out of the realm of possability to be almost insulting to an audience. (many outside magic have told me this). Dosn't the fact that it is SO far out there, really take away from things. If there is just NO possability of it happening, and it is on a camera where it is obvious he is using stooges, is it really that magical? It is an example only and there are thousands of them so lets not let this degrade to Criss bashing as it is not my intent. Another example, last night he "vanished a stranger surrounded". Well no he didn't. It obviously wasn't a stranger. Would the trick hav been LESS impressive if it was a person he employed? I don't think so. Heck I thought it was a good bit of magic. But the idiotic LIE part, a "stranger" really took away from the experience. I guess when you are obviously "caught" in a lie, it takes away from everything else you may say or do. So lets not bash anyone, as it is not my intent here. I just want to know to what "degree" we lie too and at what point it takes away from what we do.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
How about large lies? Someone who was a very effective orator and leader suggested that the small lies are difficult to manage but the really big lies are somehow more believable.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Chris Miller Loyal user Rochester, NY 242 Posts |
Funny you should mention the bit from Criss Angel where the "stranger" was chosen from the audience for the surrounded disappearance. I came to the Café today explicitly looking for comments on that aspect of the routine. The effect was nice, but I cringed when he over-sold the "we've never met before, right" moment with an unconvincing actor/helper/stranger. It took away from the effect which hadn't even happened yet for me, even though the effect was strong. From a non-layman point of view, I wished they had used a wider angle steady shot so the experience for someone at home could have been more like someone in the audience, but distracting camera changes aside, the effect would have been more impressive without the obvious lie. From a spectator's point of view, I think the obvious lie takes away from the effect because it starts the back-tracking thought process too soon (in otherwords, before the magic has happened) and does not let me just enjoy the entertainment. Just my two cents worth...
Chris |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Yea his "stranger" wasn't even on the other side of the barricade! ANY of them. Even the guy who wanted to "check under the boards" was on the INSIDE of the barrier!
People NOTICE things like that. I had 20 NON magicians shouting about those things to me. It took away from what in my opinion was really a NICE TRICK!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Josh the Superfluous Inner circle The man of 1881 Posts |
Season lies to taste.
If your selling the effect as an anomaly of science, ground it in scientific fact. If your presentation is more playful, the sky's the limit.
What do you want in a site? "Honesty, integrity and decency." -Mike Doogan
"I hate it, I hate my ironic lovechild. I didn't even have anything to do with it" Josh #2 |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-06-01 11:26, Jonathan Townsend wrote: ... and therein lies (no pun) the Catch-22. The supporting data of the big lies are the fine details. One tiny mis-step and the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I wish there were such a catch 22 about big lies.
As proved early last century... if they appeal to base interests, the evidence will be discoverd to serve the cause.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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cinemagician Inner circle Phila Metro Area 1094 Posts |
Interesting point Danny. Henning Nelms loosely reffered to this as "conservation". He suggested that more plausible claims = a stronger connviction. Yet, at the same time this may serve to weaken the illusion.
For example, in one of the first items in the book, a cut and restored rope effect is traded for a carnival strong man stunt. Instead of the two ends joining together, they are held at the fingertips and the spectators are asked to pull on either side. Of course, they can't free the ropes from your grip because the two ropes are really one. So a miraculous cut and restored rope is traded for a less amazing but more believible "carnival stunt". He suggests..."after you have found the best possible proof, ask yourself wheather it is adaquite to convince the spectator temporrarily. If it fails to reach this level...weaken your claim or abandon the routine."
...The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity...
William Butler Yeats |
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travisb Special user Vancouver, BC 546 Posts |
"Too perfect", eh? What would he have needed to do to convince you that it was a real stranger?
-Travis |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
Actualy, I believe that the lies aren't what any of you are having trouble with. Your problem seems to be his poor selling of it. There are no big or small lies, only poor performances. That's why I don't watch "him" or "the other one" anymore. They aren't magicians, they are sensationalist special effects artists. They demean our art.
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Josh the Superfluous Inner circle The man of 1881 Posts |
Travis,
Have the stranger say or do something unexpected that catches the magician off guard. e.g. Magician asks spectator her name as she walks on stage, spectator stops takes gum out of mouth and sticks it to soda can which she sets by the foot of the stage, before answering. Or 2 "strangers" could be used. One could be requested by the magician and refuse so another "stranger" would have to be selected. Spectators would reconstruct the scene and remember the magician wanted to use someone different. Something that in the mind of the spectator wouldn't be scripted.
What do you want in a site? "Honesty, integrity and decency." -Mike Doogan
"I hate it, I hate my ironic lovechild. I didn't even have anything to do with it" Josh #2 |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
He could have started with her on the OTHER SIDE OF THE BARRIER! Not a bad first step.
Jack hits the mark really. The poor selling of it really is getting to me. An otherwise great trick, even for TV magic, and it is ruined by bad acting on all parts. His as well as hers. Jack thank you sir!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
Anytime. A pleasure as always.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
The lie should not be believable, tell the biggest you lie that you can think of, so long as you can prove it is the truth.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Why offer proof? They believe in magic, so test their faith.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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RandyStewart Inner circle Texas (USA) 1989 Posts |
You can lie to me all you want.
Just stay away from and don't lie to me about my money, booze, loved ones, sex, drugs, rock & roll, oh and God. Go ahead and lie, lie, lie, lie, as more often than not, I can be easily entertained. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Tell me lies
tell me lies tell me sweet little lies and let me savor the big ones like santa claus and all of that fun
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
Have the stranger say or do something unexpected that catches the magician off guard. e.g. Magician asks spectator her name as she walks on stage, spectator stops takes gum out of mouth and sticks it to soda can which she sets by the foot of the stage, before answering Okay a little off topic (maybe not) but I couldn't resist: When Barbra Steisand auditioned for her first Broadway role, she came in, chewing gum furiously. She was asked to sing, and then she looked around for a moment and put the wad of gum under a nearby stool. The auditioners were rolling their eyes at each other in disbelief concerning her coarse behavior. So then she starts singing and knocks them out with her singing and acting ability, completely transforming herself. After she leaves the audition room, one of the auditioners checks under the stool for the wad of gum. He finds nothing. There was nothing to find. She got the part and became very famous. Jack Shalom
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Josh the Superfluous Inner circle The man of 1881 Posts |
Jack,
That wasn't off topic. He should have used Barbara Striesand for his surrounded disappearance.
What do you want in a site? "Honesty, integrity and decency." -Mike Doogan
"I hate it, I hate my ironic lovechild. I didn't even have anything to do with it" Josh #2 |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Aside from that fact that the story is about as real as the Ozzy bat story.
But yea it was a cool legend. But Josh is right. USing her would have been believable. The point is when the "lie" has NOTHING to do with the trick, why tell it? Why take away from the experience. I guess the problem I really have is that the lie didn't help him do the trick. Yea tell lies, but make them count.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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