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The Magic Cafe Forum Index ŧ ŧ Magic names and the media ŧ ŧ Criss Angel Mindfreak episodes: "Sawing" & "Water Walking" (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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gman
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You have to admit watching the upper body of the spectator running away was funny to say the least. I do have one question for all those who watch Blaine and Chris and complain about them using stooges and what not to perform certain things.

Aren't you doing the samething...using sleights, gimmicks, and high tech to perform effects you hope will have your spectators say wow?

Let's face it folks if we could do "Real Magic"...then would we not be branded as witches, warlocks, and be roasted on an open fire??

Don't hate the man because he has his own show and has more fame than you...why not figure out how to get your own show then you can do what you really want to do, or could you?

Just my two cents.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2006-06-08 09:27, usendmee wrote:
I was struggling frantically to remember the exact date. Richiardi's image brought back some long forgotten memories of my own early introduction to the art of magic. Madison Square Garden, 1981. ...


I saw such a show there in 1975. Geoff Krozier (sp) and several other acts performed. Richiardi closed the show and it ended with the audience invited onstage to look at the woman just sawed in half by his buzz saw.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Pete Biro
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I liked last night shows and could care less about cuts etc. It is SHOW BUSINESS... and his RATINGS were sky high... the best ever for A&E. What more could the network ask for?
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
EsnRedshirt
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I finally got a chance to catch his show last night. Personally, I think it's great that he's getting magic back into the mind of the public, since Copperfield hasn't done a TV special for years, and Blaine's more into stunts than illusions.

No one has yet commented on Lance Burton's routine. This is what Criss is really doing to help magic- showing the public other magicians with different styles. Sure, people know about Burton, but I bet few non-magicians remembered how good he is unless they'd recently seen his Vegas show. By showing him and other magicians on Mindfreak, Criss is reminding people that he's not the only one who can impress them. Maybe someone watching Mindfreak will think, "Wow, Criss is pretty good, but that guy with the cards was amazing, too! Maybe I should hire a magician for that party I've got coming up..."

I'm hoping Criss is leading the renaissance of modern magic with his shows.
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* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt.
Ryan Price
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No matter if you like him or not, I personally don’t care for his style but I do enjoy the magic, having any magic on tv is better for us then having no magic on tv. Not only does it give most of us the fire in our belly to improve but also brings magic to people and that will hopefully lead to more gigs for the rest of us.
On the subject of Chris using camera tricks I say go right ahead, if you can make the laymen believe that you didn’t use them at all. However the amount of cuts in the program does not help this matter.

That’s my two cents
Randwill
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Quote:
On 2006-06-08 14:32, gman wrote:

Let's face it folks if we could do "Real Magic"...then would we not be branded as witches, warlocks, and be roasted on an open fire??



Many people do "real magic". Tom Mullica, Whit Haydn, Michael Ammar, Scotty York, Doc Eason, Roger Klause, Eugene Burger, Jeff McBride, Bill Malone to name a few. Slydini and Dai Vernon did "real magic". A lot of the people who post here do "real magic".

Gandalf (in "The Lord of the Rings" movies), Jeannie (of television "I Dream of..." fame), and to a large extent Criss Angel perform simulations of "real magic" with the aid of film and television technology.
Joey Stalin
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I wsa just going to mention the appearances by Lance and Jeff in the last few episodes. That is what I enjoyed the most about those mindfreak episodes. Burton's card manipulations were so nice.
-A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.
-It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
-The secret impresses no one. The trick you use it for is everything.

See you space cowboy...
Jazz
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Ok letīs not go there again. Where you canīt comment on the show because if you do, good or bad, then you are jealous and you donīt have your own show. We have talked about that enough. Letīs face it, any magician that goes on TV, will have his performanced analyzed, studied and commented on this forum, either good or bad. Now some will love it, others will hate it but itīs their own opinions and thatīs it. In the end the discussions enrichen our forum and our community. Just remember to have an opinion you must have watched! Thatīs great for ratings and the network.
johnnymagic
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I liked the show and a coworker has already asked me how did he do that. Laymen who like the show watch it. Laymen who don't like it don't watch. I believe we should watch no matter what to suppport magic in the media.

SmileJM
Out of all the magicians I know, you're one of 'em...

www.johnnymagicmemphis.com
Jazz
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Having said that, I have my own opinions. I like the show in general. The concept, the illusions, the presentations. Letīs remember the target audience for the show: itīs laypeople, not magicians, and I think it is doing good with them.

I like the fact that there are more illusions being presented and less stunts like in season 1. Most of them are old principles and old illusions presented in new ways which I think itīs refreshing. Now you have to admit that the production team keeps saying they are brand new, and that they have never been presented before. I guess they could tone down those comments a little.

Now it has been comented a lot about the use of s.....s. I personally donīt like the fact that much, but sometimes I guess there is no other way. Just donīt overdo it. What I really donīt like is the use and abuse of camera cuts and edits. They are doing it in every illusion. Itīs kind of a sour note, because most of the illusions can be performed perfectly without them. They donīt need to edit them. Maybe itīs constraints of the network for tv time? But the production team should do a better job about that. For example the surrounded vanishing on the street, it could have been performed on a single open tv shot, but the edits, I think, killed it. Well for us anyway, not for laypeople.

One thing that I donīt like is that he doesnīt finish the illusions. Restored the sawees (is that a word?), bring back the vanished. If it just ends there, then the audience may think that the trickery is done after that. Again maybe time constraints, but they feel kind of incomplete, donīt you think? Take the surrounded vanishing comented before. People were chanting "bring the girl back" or something like that. Well we know he couldnīt bring her back for obvious reasons, but you can see what the general feeling of the audience is. The might first think "WOW, thatīs amazing" and then lefy with the feeling of "what, thatīs it?"

So I like the illusions and the concepts, but the production can be better. For example the illsuion where he turns the mannequim into a living girl, it was very good. Great idea and great setting. Again the camera shots and edits killed it (again for us).

Having other magicians on the show is a hit, no doubt about that. Now, someone said they must support Criss since they appear on his show. I guess so, but letīs remember weīre talking magicians here (big egos). Come on, we all know it, we have those!! Haha. And a little publicity never hurted anyone.

And no I donīt have my own show and I am not saying "I could have done it better" or anything like that. All in all I like the show and Iīll keep watching. Itīs good we have magic again on TV, good or bad. I think there was a void for a while (thanks Masekd Magician!)

My two cents
gman
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Quote:
On 2006-06-08 15:06, Randwill wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-06-08 14:32, gman wrote:

Let's face it folks if we could do "Real Magic"...then would we not be branded as witches, warlocks, and be roasted on an open fire??



Many people do "real magic". Tom Mullica, Whit Haydn, Michael Ammar, Scotty York, Doc Eason, Roger Klause, Eugene Burger, Jeff McBride, Bill Malone to name a few. Slydini and Dai Vernon did "real magic". A lot of the people who post here do "real magic".

Gandalf (in "The Lord of the Rings" movies), Jeannie (of television "I Dream of..." fame), and to a large extent Criss Angel perform simulations of "real magic" with the aid of film and television technology.



Randwill, are you saying that the gentlemen you mentioned and the folks here can perform magic...ie...float ten feet high without the use of wires or other gimmicks, can turn water into wine (or beer) without the aid of sleight of hand or the use of misdirection or chemicals that make it taste like wine or beer, can conjur Houdini from the dead, and turn an ordinary brick into real gold without trickery?

While the men you mentioned above are truly exceptional and while most of the folks here are truly great performers, I believe they use sleights, gimmicks, high tech equipment, and a host of other things. Which is the basic comparison I was making when I posted.

Jazz,

I didn't say that no one could have an opinion. I just said that instead of complaining and having a holier than thou attitude as some not all have...why not just remember it is a show that is meant to entertain. That is all I meant by my post.
Jazz
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Gman, pont well taken. Still it wasnīt directed to you, but there are many that keep going through those lines. As you well said it is a show meant to entertain. Now what type of entertainment show it is (street magic, stunts, illusions, effects, the camera es the star, reality, etc), that makes for good discussion without alienating anyone.
Randwill
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Gman, I was trying to make the point that those mentioned do the kind of magic we talk about here at The Magic Café. That's what I call 'real magic'. I differentiate this from the type of magic seen in movies and television. I'm not saying 'real magic' can't be presented on television. Even on Mindfreak we have seen Lance Burton, Jeff McBride and even Angel himself, on occasion, do some 'real magic'.
unilogo
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Optimistic minds you all are and it's BEAUTIFUL. Added are the feelings of hopelessness it is no surprise many will choose to just accept it. DON'T- It is a horrible show.

THEY SAY: It's just enterntainment, Shut up watch or just quit. BUT, Do you realize you are discrediting yourself? Personally, If something is going to HURT MY ART, that which I hold dearest over everything except my family, I am not just going to shutup; This is my passion. Actions/Opinions/Criticism will be taken........Highly encouraged too because I do spite how wounded this is leaving me and you.

"Mindfreak"-IF you are going to DARE call yourself an: Artist,Ellusionist,The killer of Novelty magic......Why is it you are getting the SAME reactions a MAGICIAN would? CLEARLY you are still a magican W/ very few changed variables. It is being implied this is ORIGINAL and it IS but only a slight alteration on our art. From methods to speech it is ALL derived from MAGIC-It's Books and it's history. So far, only around 30 percent "Mindfreak" fills his shows if you pay attention: Sawing people in half, Vanishing, Levitation, Creating,etc...All have the roots and are STILL concidered MAGIC. Even physicial stunts and labels come from David Blaine; Who accurately has the lable of "Street MAGICIAN."

To answer your song/label Criss-YOU ARE NOT A "MINDFREAK." You are a MAGICIAN with LITTLE originality.

They Say II: Aren't we as magicians doing the same thing using: Slights,Gimmicks,High tech,etc...To perform our miracles and have our specators say "WOW"? YES WE ARE-But it has nothing to do with methods; It's about the limits of real life performance; How this is being broken and wrongly portrayed to the home audience.

JUST KNOW if you go to ANY laymen filled community where comments
are left about the show there is always this misconception actors don't exist and
what he is doing can TRUELY be performed live and it would look THE SAME. What a depressing thought that is to ME; What a letdown it is for the spectator to know
they will never be able to witness it as seen on tv.

They Say III:As long as I get more jobs.OK, This is called selling out;I don't respect it nor do your fans. Just ask, They want to KNOW you as the BETTER performer than Angel in certain style/position; Maybe for the most part YOU ARE. You can't take credit as this guy is performing the impossible in a way you wouldn't dream of. Think you should get the PROPER RESPECT you deserve; This bragging boy with really cool special fx is diminishing you. I don't know about you but I would be furious......

They say IV:It's showbusiness and all that matters is ratings. If your mindset is just that; You as a hero and artist are dead to me. I will respect you as a person but just that. Underachieving is my problem with you-You are supporting the
death of our art for: Feeding the egocentric chump money/respect he doesn't deserve, For your money and the choice to passively/lazily do NOTHING.

TAKE the action; We KNOW is destroying our art. Life being brought to the art; Just Watch it die..........

Honestly-Do you want to see more Chris Angel inspired magicians in the future do TV shows OR do you want THE REAL DEAL to come out and portray our art in the way IT IS MEANT TO BE SEEN?

There is a HUGE difference between a Tv magician and HE/SHE working magic effects on tv.
TrevorH
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Interesting thoughts and ideas in your post there unilogo. Optimistic minds we are indeed since as you mentioned we are not the lay talking about CA, I do not agree we just "accept" it per say but we are open to it as what it is showen as and what we know it to be.

Horrible is a fairly harsh word to use depending on where you are coming from and what you see the show doing to the art of magic and illusions. They do say it is just entertainment and just sit back and watch it or don't even bother to turn on your tv in the first place, but I do agree to an extent it could be hurting the art or tricking it rather getting people to see the true art of magic in a diffrent light and expect things way off base from the art.

I like the way he is trying to motivate people and bring new fans into it with the hope he will push magic to the extreme, a lot of people in a profession have the mindset of "I may not be there best there is and the best there ever will be but maybe with my actions I can motivate that person or the next few people to dedicate their life to it and will really step it up to help advance what I love most in life further in the world" or atleast get more people thinking about it, sure some lay folks will make mokery of it and treat it poorly or take it for what it is not but that happends with anything and everything this day in age anyways.

Sure they say as long as you get more jobs and that could be called selling out so to speak and people want to be thinking they are seeing the best of the best and want to know you as the better but they have only seen you live, they can think what they want about what they saw on tv but I am sure understand the diffrence, from what I have seen so far anwyays. Feeding money and respect he does not deserve, again it is how you see it, I don't really think he is changing it just showing it in a diffrent way as I doubt his actions will make the entire lay world try and change it but only advance it and do things with more creation and mix with the inner workings to see what can be done.

I do not want to see any more inspired magicians the "exact" same as CA in the future but people that have worked hard and spent an insane amount of time dedicating their life to be the best they can be in mind, body and spirit. Sure there is a huge change in the way it is worked speaking on aspects but that in itself is "magic" be it a live show or tv staying with the root of the word itself.
kregg
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Quote:
On 2006-06-08 17:03, unilogo wrote:
Optimistic minds you all are and it's BEAUTIFUL. Added are the feelings of hopelessness it is no surprise many will choose to just accept it. DON'T- It is a horrible show.

THEY SAY: It's just enterntainment, Shut up watch or just quit. BUT, Do you realize you are discrediting yourself? Personally, If something is going to HURT MY ART, that which I hold dearest over everything except my family, I am not just going to shutup; This is my passion. Actions/Opinions/Criticism will be taken........Highly encouraged too because I do spite how wounded this is leaving me and you.

"Mindfreak"-IF you are going to DARE call yourself an: Artist,Ellusionist,The killer of Novelty magic......Why is it you are getting the SAME reactions a MAGICIAN would? CLEARLY you are still a magican W/ very few changed variables. It is being implied this is ORIGINAL and it IS but only a slight alteration on our art. From methods to speech it is ALL derived from MAGIC-It's Books and it's history. So far, only around 30 percent "Mindfreak" fills his shows if you pay attention: Sawing people in half, Vanishing, Levitation, Creating,etc...All have the roots and are STILL concidered MAGIC. Even physicial stunts and labels come from David Blaine; Who accurately has the lable of "Street MAGICIAN."

To answer your song/label Criss-YOU ARE NOT A "MINDFREAK." You are a MAGICIAN with LITTLE originality.

They Say II: Aren't we as magicians doing the same thing using: Slights,Gimmicks,High tech,etc...To perform our miracles and have our specators say "WOW"? YES WE ARE-But it has nothing to do with methods; It's about the limits of real life performance; How this is being broken and wrongly portrayed to the home audience.

JUST KNOW if you go to ANY laymen filled community where comments
are left about the show there is always this misconception actors don't exist and
what he is doing can TRUELY be performed live and it would look THE SAME. What a depressing thought that is to ME; What a letdown it is for the spectator to know
they will never be able to witness it as seen on tv.

They Say III:As long as I get more jobs.OK, This is called selling out;I don't respect it nor do your fans. Just ask, They want to KNOW you as the BETTER performer than Angel in certain style/position; Maybe for the most part YOU ARE. You can't take credit as this guy is performing the impossible in a way you wouldn't dream of. Think you should get the PROPER RESPECT you deserve; This bragging boy with really cool special fx is diminishing you. I don't know about you but I would be furious......

They say IV:It's showbusiness and all that matters is ratings. If your mindset is just that; You as a hero and artist are dead to me. I will respect you as a person but just that. Underachieving is my problem with you-You are supporting the
death of our art for: Feeding the egocentric chump money/respect he doesn't deserve, For your money and the choice to passively/lazily do NOTHING.

TAKE the action; We KNOW is destroying our art. Life being brought to the art; Just Watch it die..........

Honestly-Do you want to see more Chris Angel inspired magicians in the future do TV shows OR do you want THE REAL DEAL to come out and portray our art in the way IT IS MEANT TO BE SEEN?

There is a HUGE difference between a Tv magician and HE/SHE working magic effects on tv.




Zzzzzzzzzzzzz....
Time's up.
You can schedule your next appointment with my secretary on the way out. She'll validate your parking.
POOF!
kirkmax
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Well said Unilogo!
Magic Spank
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Quote:
Just donīt overdo it. What I really donīt like is the use and abuse of camera cuts and edits. They are doing it in every illusion. Itīs kind of a sour note, because most of the illusions can be performed perfectly without them.


Lance Burton's routine was spoiled by the cuts, which were not necessary.

It is obvious to me that someone got the genius idea that they would shoot in a style with a lot of cuts, and that would end up disguising the final cut, where they do the dirty work.

I guess someone thought that could be compared to the theory of making a habit of doing some strange gesture, so it later disguises the move when you are forced to do a strange gesture. Anyone follow me?

The concept may hold some weight, if they actually used a 'style' that contained cuts on a regular basis. But whoever is editing these things has no style whatsoever. It just looks like CHOP CHOP CHOP. All for no good reason.

The way I see it magic is going through some changes right now. Implementing videography, angles and camera cuts is a fairly new idea for magic and in that case, Criss is a pioneer. You can expect the road to be a little rough for a while I suppose.

Rob
giochi
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Quote:
On 2006-06-08 17:03, unilogo wrote:
Optimistic minds you all are and it's BEAUTIFUL. Added are the feelings of hopelessness it is no surprise many will choose to just accept it. DON'T- It is a horrible show.

THEY SAY: It's just enterntainment, Shut up watch or just quit. BUT, Do you realize you are discrediting yourself? Personally, If something is going to HURT MY ART, that which I hold dearest over everything except my family, I am not just going to shutup; This is my passion. Actions/Opinions/Criticism will be taken........Highly encouraged too because I do spite how wounded this is leaving me and you.

"Mindfreak"-IF you are going to DARE call yourself an: Artist,Ellusionist,The killer of Novelty magic......Why is it you are getting the SAME reactions a MAGICIAN would? CLEARLY you are still a magican W/ very few changed variables. It is being implied this is ORIGINAL and it IS but only a slight alteration on our art. From methods to speech it is ALL derived from MAGIC-It's Books and it's history. So far, only around 30 percent "Mindfreak" fills his shows if you pay attention: Sawing people in half, Vanishing, Levitation, Creating,etc...All have the roots and are STILL concidered MAGIC. Even physicial stunts and labels come from David Blaine; Who accurately has the lable of "Street MAGICIAN."

To answer your song/label Criss-YOU ARE NOT A "MINDFREAK." You are a MAGICIAN with LITTLE originality.

They Say II: Aren't we as magicians doing the same thing using: Slights,Gimmicks,High tech,etc...To perform our miracles and have our specators say "WOW"? YES WE ARE-But it has nothing to do with methods; It's about the limits of real life performance; How this is being broken and wrongly portrayed to the home audience.

JUST KNOW if you go to ANY laymen filled community where comments
are left about the show there is always this misconception actors don't exist and
what he is doing can TRUELY be performed live and it would look THE SAME. What a depressing thought that is to ME; What a letdown it is for the spectator to know
they will never be able to witness it as seen on tv.

They Say III:As long as I get more jobs.OK, This is called selling out;I don't respect it nor do your fans. Just ask, They want to KNOW you as the BETTER performer than Angel in certain style/position; Maybe for the most part YOU ARE. You can't take credit as this guy is performing the impossible in a way you wouldn't dream of. Think you should get the PROPER RESPECT you deserve; This bragging boy with really cool special fx is diminishing you. I don't know about you but I would be furious......

They say IV:It's showbusiness and all that matters is ratings. If your mindset is just that; You as a hero and artist are dead to me. I will respect you as a person but just that. Underachieving is my problem with you-You are supporting the
death of our art for: Feeding the egocentric chump money/respect he doesn't deserve, For your money and the choice to passively/lazily do NOTHING.

TAKE the action; We KNOW is destroying our art. Life being brought to the art; Just Watch it die..........

Honestly-Do you want to see more Chris Angel inspired magicians in the future do TV shows OR do you want THE REAL DEAL to come out and portray our art in the way IT IS MEANT TO BE SEEN?

There is a HUGE difference between a Tv magician and HE/SHE working magic effects on tv.











well put unilogo
Randwill
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[quote]On 2006-06-08 20:43, Magic Spank wrote:
Quote:


The concept may hold some weight, if they actually used a 'style' that contained cuts on a regular basis. But whoever is editing these things has no style whatsoever. It just looks like CHOP CHOP CHOP. All for no good reason.


Rob


This is sometimes called the "MTV Style." It is a matter of debate if the inability of young people (Angel's demographic) to remain interested in something on a screen for more than a few seconds is the result of this style or if the style caters to the short attention span of a dumbed down generation. If you compare old movies and television to modern ones you will see this difference. Some blame "Sesame Street" which nurtured several generations on quick cut, fast editing to keep pre-schoolers interested.

In any case, it may work for the diaper set and music video fans, but it is totally counter to the coherent presentation of a magic effect which requires some consistency, or honest continuity, in order for the EFFECT to mean anything. Once the coin goes in his hand, if you cut you totally ruin the integrity of the effect of the coin vanishing. If you add wacky, queasy angles and black & white and stuttering frame rates, you have so diluted the experience of watching an artist perform his craft that he might as well not have bothered.

I'll bet that whoever the guy on Criss Angel's team who raised his hand first when they asked "Who'd like to be the editor of the show?" was raised on Cookie Monster and Pat Penatar flashing before his young addled eyes. This is the visual experience he brings to table. Sadly what works for learning numbers and letters and selling music is no way to present magic.

But I wasn't at the meeting. So they're stuck.
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