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karbonkid Special user 951 Posts |
After all this commotion I HAD to read this thing. After finishing I contemplated throwing myself onto something sharp. But, and I hope he sees the points that everyone have made here, and that you really can't take dating/pick-up advice from an 18 year-old.
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cinemagician Inner circle Phila Metro Area 1094 Posts |
How about if just ONE of you reads the essay or part of it... and see if there is one good thing you can say about it.
Instead of- skimming the essay and making sure your comments are in line with the oppinions of others.
...The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity...
William Butler Yeats |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-06-21 09:00, karbonkid wrote: Oh I would happily take advice on how to pick up girls from an 18 year old. Or any other subject for that matter, but I would want some evidence that the advice was worth reading first. @Cinemagician - You are doing that assuming thing again. My personal statements in this thread are not even about the work, but the poor attempts that have been made to cause myself and others to read it. Once those problems have been solved, I might would even give it a look. Of course some of the solutions I'm looking for seem pretty unlikely at this point. You see, I don't take part in the support of any product that is marketed poorly. Maybe if it has outstanding WOM, but then, that would be good marketing to. So far, this work has absolutely nothing to compel me to read it. As for the rest of these fellows. I can't read minds, and I don't have them under survelance, but when they start speaking in detail about the content of this work, I regard that as some pretty good evidence that at least some of them have actualy read it. Can't imagine what would cause you to assume otherwise. |
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Josh the Superfluous Inner circle The man of 1881 Posts |
Cinemagician,
I've seen posts that go all over the place. I don't think the first response is as powerful as you think it is. I've been known to contradict a whole line of responses, and so have many of the commentators I see here. Several of whom, which I hold in high regard, have countered my statements. On being 18: It is definitely a limiting factor in amount of experience, but I have seen seen some wise words from much younger. Everyone has a legitimate viewpoint to contribute. Let's not get distracted by that ism. The main concern I have seen is the source of the information, and the personal qualifications of the compiler.
What do you want in a site? "Honesty, integrity and decency." -Mike Doogan
"I hate it, I hate my ironic lovechild. I didn't even have anything to do with it" Josh #2 |
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-06-21 10:20, Josh the Superfluous wrote: If Daniel, and before him Mitchell had told us up front that they had compiled some essays based on certain works, putting their own "spin" on it to satisfy a particular age group or whatever, this would have been totally different. We probably would have offered assistance, more sources, writing tips, etc... to help these new writers along. The problem arose when they tried to convince us that it was their own original thoughts. In some of the messages, it was easy to tell whether they were writing, or when they were simply copyists. The writing styles between the two changed too drastically to believe they both came from the same person. Both sets of essays were well received in the younger forums, and hopefully it did some good there. The damage comes when the readers think these writings were original to them, and the history of our art is obscured because of it.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I am far more offended by the implication that I just follow the crowd.
As Josh has mentioned many of us in this very thread have bucked the trend at one time or another. The opinion offered is from our own experiences. Many of which include experience in the field of which the debated work has been written for longer than the alledged author has been breathing! cinnimagician you really need to re think that position and if your gonna play devils advocate as you say then you should say that up front. He tried to pass off work as his own and got caught. Not an unforgivable crime, but one that he needs to back away from and one that can not be defended.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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cinemagician Inner circle Phila Metro Area 1094 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-06-21 14:35, Dannydoyle wrote: I'd like to know specifically where/ who he ripped off. I went back and read the first 30 pages or so, I could not determine a specific author or book that was ripped off. Who or what works were ripped off in the first 30 pages? He generalizes quite a bit but that's it.
...The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity...
William Butler Yeats |
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matthew leatherbarrow Loyal user 240 Posts |
Students of any subject are often encouraged to write essays. It helps develop understanding and records growth.
However, if students were to write an essay without citation it would instantly be rubbished and fail. When I started university the tutors quickly pointed out that the theft of ideas was no different to any type of stealing. Even the use of a different referencing system is punishable. This said, I can’t help but notice a distinctly ugly undertone on these boards. Seemingly unless you are a full time professional magician you have no right to increase the amount of magic literature – effects or notes. It’s as if the elders of magic have become the Microsoft of our art, when it’s increasingly becoming open source. It seems fitting that as the fixes become quicker (DVD’s rather than books, internet rather than actual shops) the end product will be different. For better or worse will no doubt split opinion. Anyway to conclude: Citation, encouragement = good. Hostility, cynicism = bad. Regards, Mx |
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CasualSoul Special user Edmonton, Canada 542 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-06-16 19:39, Bill Palmer wrote: :rotf: That is so funny because it's so true. I don't think I've laughed this hard for over a week.
"Open their mind by performing the impossible"
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-06-21 15:20, matthew leatherbarrow wrote:...It’s as if the elders of magic have become the Microsoft of our art, when it’s increasingly becoming open source... Some of use have been amateur and open source for a good many years as well as contributing to this craft. On the communications skills side, I'll leave it at recommending folks get competent with the meta-model and basic analysis work described in The Structure of Magic Volume I and apply those tools to their work and online discussions. Okay... it would also help to get iespeller or similar installed to handle the spelling. :)
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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matthew leatherbarrow Loyal user 240 Posts |
Jonathan,
“Some of use have been amateur and open source for a good many years as well as contributing to this craft.” It’s refreshing to hear such sentiment however I would be wary of comments regarding spelling and structure. Being dyslexic, spell checkers and plenty of reading has been somewhat a saviour – but some things still slip through the net. I feel confident and have learned to work with it, others may still be struggling – a little consideration for those would be appreciated. Regards, Mx :) |
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RandyStewart Inner circle Texas (USA) 1989 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-06-21 14:35, Dannydoyle wrote: Nah just let it go. When Drew made that comment I knew he wasn't talking about me and thus ignored it. I KNOW he couldn't be talking about me as I've locked horns with enough people by disagreeing with them versus following the herd and saying "Stone the newcomer!"... |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
Heck, I almost feel bad that I agree with so many posters here. Kinda feel like I've broken some rule I've been folowing in every forum I post on. With the almost sole exception of this thread, I almost always take the oposite side of the thread, and if it's split, I almost always make my own personal third side that disagrees with both of the others. I think you will find me to be the most disagreeable person in this forum, short of plain old downright nastyness. This work is simply bad enough to unite all these posters who hardly ever agree on anything.
@Randy - That was Cinemagician that said that, not me. No blood no foul though. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Lets define something. Ed Marlo. NOBODY more giving than he was. AN AMATURE. One of the godfathers. NOBODY ever called him a hobbiest, nobody called him an amature, his contributions to the volumes of magic available are rivaled by no single author and few coupled together.
So lets quit the whining about who is a pro and who is an amature. It is irrelevant and has always been so. Why did people listen to him? Because he was a creative master and usually didn't speak out of his depth. IF he was influenced by someone, then he mentioned it. IF you did a physics paper and simply rehashed old ideas from others and never mentioned it and used it as a trick to sell crap, and then tried to pass it off as your own, do you know the kind of things that would be written? If you think this is harsh try it some time. This is polite discourse compared to what would happen. Do it at the University level and prepare to be expelled. I notice how it is the people who havn't put in the years, who want it to be open source. Funny how that works isn't it? at some juncture my point simply becomes you should EARN knowlege, otherwise it is useless to you. Then when you package it as it was, it really is bad for the art. and cinnimagician, still wanting you to address how it is I follow the crowd. Like I said it was offensive, and you seem to want to gloss it over. he indeed tries to pass off other ideas as if he is the first one to discover them. Kind of funny as to think nobody would notice. As if he is the only one smart enough to read this stuff. Either he is arrogant which comes across in his work, or he thinks we are idiots, which comes across here.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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RandyStewart Inner circle Texas (USA) 1989 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-06-21 16:44, JackScratch wrote: Thanks for clarifying that Drew. Quote:
Heck, I almost feel bad that I agree with so many posters here. Kinda feel like I've broken some rule I've been following in every forum I post on. With the almost sole exception of this thread, I almost always take the opposite side of the thread, and if it's split, I almost always make my own personal third side that disagrees with both of the others. I think you will find me to be the most disagreeable person in this forum, short of plain old downright nastyness. This work is simply bad enough to unite all these posters who hardly ever agree on anything. Well dang Drew...you're just an all around "agredisagreable" character aern't ya! Quote:
On 2006-06-21 16:15, matthew leatherbarrow wrote: Hi Matt! The grammatical errors within a 'finished' product FOR SALE is not excusable. This is what proof readers are for and it may take more than one. For instance, on a performance level, I've gone to the trouble of practicing certain effects, recording them, and sending them out to friends who can help. Upon receiving critique I return to fine tune poor areas and start all over again - a necessary form of editing I suppose. Again and again and again... In my case, that's what one in need of special help needs to do. The reason I do it is because the improvements are REAL. As a kid I didn't have the luxury of going to Chavez School of Magic and I was too young and intimidated by the crusty impatient old members of my SAM club which I left after just two meetings. But I haven't given up! I'm still doing this as I need the help. To try and sell what I had the first, second, third, even fourth time around, asking check writers and audience to, as you stated "a little consideration for those would be appreciated", does not work for anyone involved. It would of actually been embarrasing to magic. I ultimately would of been disappointed in myself. One of those things where I'd have to ask how I could live with myself My rough drafts will remain there until it's ready and it's good. Until then, armed with good advice, which I went through the time and expense to seek out, I eagerly sculpt away. This should apply to writers as well. |
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matthew leatherbarrow Loyal user 240 Posts |
I don’t think comparing the trappings of dyslexia to performance is fair or appropriate.
The adage ‘practice makes perfect’ does not apply to those who suffer dyslexia – though it does certainly help. While I agree a product should not have errors of any kind, the document in question is no longer a product, it’s an essay. Not everybody has the luxury of a proof reader. “IF you did a physics paper and simply rehashed old ideas from others and never mentioned it and used it as a trick to sell crap, and then tried to pass it off as your own, do you know the kind of things that would be written? If you think this is harsh try it some time. This is polite discourse compared to what would happen. Do it at the University level and prepare to be expelled.” I think I covered that notion in an earlier post. “I notice how it is the people who havn't put in the years, who want it to be open source. Funny how that works isn't it?” Aside from my posts and Jonathan’s replies, the term ‘open source’ has not been used by anyone in this discussion. Furthermore, I don’t think years of being a magician and a desire for it to be ‘open source’ are interdependent variables. How many years would you say are enough? It’s not funny, more confusing. Mx |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
It's one thing to have a conversation online with typos, though another to go public with sloppy product.
When it comes to ideas, we can at least be academic about it and cite our sources. I just finished writing something to share some of my thought process in a work. It went out and not two hours later I found typos and a missing word here and there. lol. I wrote it to express my process, not to demonstrate it.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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CasualSoul Special user Edmonton, Canada 542 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-06-19 22:27, cinemagician wrote: Sorry for using such a large quote, but I finally got around to actually reading the whole paper and I think Mark's words here are worth repeating as I feel almost exactly the same way. The paper is obviously very flawed, but he's just a kid guys. Arthur
"Open their mind by performing the impossible"
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
....and because he is a kid, this work deserves a less objective review from the public?
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Josh the Superfluous Inner circle The man of 1881 Posts |
Amen to Mark's re-quote above.
I didn't read the essay. I just commented on the questionable use of stock photography. When I pointed this out, he proclaimed to have written consent. When I did a spot check on ONE posted image, I discovered it's true origins. He sent me a PM stating that he had been duped, and would go through his records and find the scoundrel that sold him the stolen image. I stopped commenting seriously at that point.
What do you want in a site? "Honesty, integrity and decency." -Mike Doogan
"I hate it, I hate my ironic lovechild. I didn't even have anything to do with it" Josh #2 |
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