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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
Hi guys,
May I add some things from my own experience? I am likely the last to speak-up when it comes to passion and commitment of perspective, but I will add that, "in my experience" BOTH of you are right. As a creator and success solutions & products manufacturer, I have experienced BOTH ends of the spectrum. I have seen low-life, scum sucking, rip-off jerks (Sorry for the foul references…) take product and cause it to bottom out in very short order! YES, EVERYONE involved added to the scum sucking! Those who stole and duplicated and sold the ripped-off materials, and those who BOUGHT the ripped-off materials! But the FACT remains, it DID, in fact cause the 'perceived value', and then the actual price of the products to plummet like a meteor headed to earth! The shallow minded thinking of the buyer was: "If I can get it for less... heck, who am I to argue?" (Though, as we all know, they really did NOT get a DEAL at all! - No support, zero coaching, no guarantees, none of the killer bonuses... blah, blah, blah etc! - PLUS, I am certain that they will never quite achieve any normal level of success while lack of integrity holds them back! I have seen evidence of THAT as well! – There IS some justice in the world after all! – Woo Hoo!) THAT is, in part why I chimed in originally when I did… unfortunately, due to theses rip off jerks, I have now had to make ALL of my products VERY EXCLUSIVE “licensed” products with pre-signed contracts and licensed agreements and the whole shooten’ match that is VERY STRICKED in terms and understanding. Hey, I don’t like it either, but to protect myself it is the choice I have with-out having to raise my prices to adjust for the inevitable loss of theft! BUT, Everyone looses! NOW, everything is licensed, numbered and very carefully monitored with devastating consequences if the agreement is violated, and ALL in writing with their signature! To date, I have not been ripped-off since! PS I DO have a clause for the “transfer” of the license if they really want to, BUT they have to let me know, get my “written” release and permission and the NEW owner MUST sign the license agreement with ME! - - Even though the re-sell money goes to the former license holder. THAT is fair as it gets, and I know exactly where all my licensed products are and THEY get the warranties, bonuses and benefits of owning a exclusive licensed product… now THAT is WIN WIN! => AND THEN... On the other hand I have seen prices go up to the end user due (the folks of real integrity... ) to the fact that people actually HAVE been ripped-off and so, sometimes, I know others who simply build-in "theft insurance" into the price of their products from the get-go to cover their eventual and inevitable loss in income due to theses thieves and villains and the cost associated with the loss as well as pursuing the legal solutions. How sad is THAT??? What a sad commentary to our industry that guys like "The Hypno-Jerk", Mr. "Rrrrrrg!" (another known product terrorist!) and others, of which there are many, who each thrive, like parasites of the life-blood of others for their own mere existence and survival! Blood sucking vampires! - Kill them all! Anyway... to say that I am passionate is an understatement to say the least, but to the point, you BOTH are right, and each deserve venerable consideration and NOT to the 'exclusion' of the other. One doesn’t NOT have to be WRONG for the other to be RIGHT and visa versa. You BOH are bright, smart, respected, contributing members of this family and there is value in what BOTH of you have to offer with-out the bickering. Be passionate, stand your ground and stick to your beliefs, but be adult and appropriate at the same time, OK guys? – You CAN Do It! I believe in you both! – THANKS! I guess I am just FULL of surprises today eh'? (Hehehehe!) I am at your service and In HIS Service, Deano <><
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Dean my point was that not everyone does it. PERIOD.
To lump me in with his larceny is an assumption he is making and he is wrong. For me to assume he is honest, was wrong apparantly. Can anyone imagine how much less things would actually cost, if we DIDN'T have theft of ideas and such? Cheap rip off artists and con men? Bottom line we entertain an audience not con them. Con them and try to keep getting shows. I am not angry, but collin you seem to be frustrated by the discussion. Skeletons? Yep, but I think a smart person learns from behavior, bad or good. I am wrong a lot, I have done wrong things, but usually only one time each.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Colin Gilbert New user 77 Posts |
Danny, I haven’t got a clue where you are coming from. Maybe the word ‘con’ loses a bit in translation. I don’t know. Over here to ‘con’ means to deceive in any way shape or form, not just to steal from. Anyway, I am a relatively honest person. I hope. But that is neither here nor there and what you may think of me doesn’t bother me, maybe it should but after reading through the whole topic again, it doesn’t. Enough said on that.
Dean, the way you sell/distribute your items is totally different with the licensing etc. it all seems too involved for me! But I certainly agree with covering yourself as much as feasibly possible. Definitely. But, I prefer a more simple life. I am referring to the average guy who today wants to market an effect so bare with me if I’m going slightly off topic here I apologise, but the point I was trying to make in my previous postings was, the re-sale of genuine items shouldn’t pose a problem. If the item or material is good enough the vendor will always sell his stock. ‘This item must not be re-sold’ makes me think that after buying it I might just want to do exactly that! So, no, not a good idea from a magic item point of view. Probably necessary for Microsoft etc. but we aren’t talking about Microsoft. We are talking magic items and Dvds etc. So, copies, rip-offs etc. call them what you will, cannot be justified in any way shape or form. I don’t condone them and never will. The people that go out of their way to make and blatantly sell them simply because they know full well the magic world will do nothing about them deserve to have a tag on their toe. But after all, who can blame them? We all need money. We would all like a penny more than we can spend wouldn’t we? So, if you can do it why not? No one is going to stop you so you might as well get on with it. I am NOT trying to justify it, I am merely saying that it has always happened and because of what we do about it, it always will. The more scumbags out there that do start selling rip-offs the better, then, when the magic world has eventually sunk as far as it can possibly go, maybe then we may see a change. The Internet is here, anyone can have cheapomagic.com today if they want and instantly have worldwide customers. So if you are concerned about anything that you may want to market but worry whether it will be re-sold or ripped off, the answer is simple, don’t market it in the first place. My reasons for saying this are explained with a brief insight into my own experience with the subject. Now, Linking Lifesaver has been good to me. Very good indeed. But I do have Penguin Magic to thank for that. They started the ball rolling with what they did and the subject ended up on numerous forums at the time. Of course the forums achieved nothing, just a lot of people gassing on with their individual views mostly hiding behind pseudonyms. Anyway, from that trivia I made many, many magical friends worldwide who were more serious about their art than the ones spouting off in their posts. Some you may have heard of but of course many that you won’t. But the list slowly grows. It doesn’t make me rich, but I have been supplying tricks and effects on a one-to-one basis with many of them since that time at prices I could only have dreamed of – their choice originally not mine- on the understanding that I don’t release them to Joe Public and if they don’t like the effect I buy back at 40% of cost – this hasn’t happened yet thankfully. This works very well for all concerned. I get good money for my work and they get to perform ‘magic’ that only a small amount of serious magicians are also performing, a few of which have been seen on T.V. which gives me a nice Buzz. I obviously haven’t covered myself as much as you have Dean but nothing of that nature has happened yet so I think up to now I am dealing with the right type of magician. But I do have other effects that I would like to release commercially but I will not until this side of magic has cleaned up its act. Not going to happen is it? Who really cares or takes note of what is said on here or any forum anyway? How many ‘views’ at the moment? 200? Deduct the amount of posts, then deduct the amount of post’s again as we all read what we have posted straight after doing so, which puts the amount of views up again, so realistically you are probably nearer the 50 different individual views mark. Wow! Link arms and storm the magic castle and demand change! I think not. So my last word on this particular matter is a little advice to anyone that has got a good effect or whatever, don’t just sell it for a fast buck, no matter what ‘protection’ you think you may have. Contact any of the more well-known and respected magicians with it (they don’t all just perform their own stuff) and see what reaction you get. You may be surprised. Like me, you may be in the wrong place but at the right time. Leave this side of magic behind like you leave excrement. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Collin let me say you hit the nail on the head.
It happens because it really can't be stopped effectivly I don't disagree. My only point is not everyone does it. As you said enough said. As for not going for the fast buck, again your right. I hope people do take your advice seriously. It is on the money.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
As I said... I'm NOT disagreeing with anyone here. THAT was my point I guess.
Danny, I got it... I know that. I hope that I never suggested otherwise. As Donny Osmond use to say: (Sing) "One Bad Apple..." Kinda' sad I even know that... Hehehehe! Colin, I have also produced general release magic effects back in the mid seventies so I completely understand your perspective... YES, ‘currently’, my situation IS different and my success products ARE NOT for 'general release' like a simple magic trick might be. I have a VERY select, targeted group of professionals who buy my success support systems and as such, IS not only "worth-it" for all parties involved, it is now become pretty "normal" for major product producers. Keep in mind that my average system investment is over $200.00 each. The ‘other’ choice is to raise the price to accommodate the loss and THAT, to me, is un acceptable anyway. This practice in quickly becoming more the NORM than the acceptation in professional circles anyway, so no worries bud! Carry on! I am, as always, at your service and In HIS Service, Deano <><
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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Colin Gilbert New user 77 Posts |
Thank you Danny and thank you Dean. Maybe I don't explain myself clearly but I find it difficult to type (with one finger)and think correctly when trying to put down something I feel passionate about. Multi tasking, not one of my strong points I suppose. I just wanted to make the point that there are better alternatives open to inventors and creators out there. It isn't fair that they should be held back because of what may happen.
To be honest, though I am now obliged never to release the effects commercially that I have sold privately, the amount I have got from some them in total, I would have sold the rights to anyway if offered that in the begining, so if one or two seep out in the future it would be no big deal. I don't know how many sides there are to magic but I believe I have seen one of the worse and definately one of the best. HypnotizeAmerica, I do apologise for straying slightly off your topic but in a way I think it has all connected (slightly) but some good points have been made throughout. Thanks. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Collin yea it is connected.
Thing is magic is propegated by quick buck artists of all types. Some inventers, some performers, some shop owners, publishers, and so on.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
In EVERY industry there is and will always be... "The Good, The Bad & The Ugly". Such is life.
There are known "product terrorist" (some we would likely recognize by name, here.) who has been unfortunately known to sell illegal copies of other people’s stuff, as well as get a copy of the “originators” products and (supposedly) "tweak" (changing a few words here n' there!) of theses other peoples product under the guise of trying to be "LEGAL" (If you call ripping off other people's hard work, intellectual property and products LEGAL!) and then re-selling it under his own assumed names (YES, Many of them!) on those big auction sites. He has been booted several tomes from the big auction sites but he keeps coming back under yet another 'assumed' name. He even boldly professes to be a 'person of character & faith' – Now THAT hurts! Remember: Valentino WHO? BUT... and here is the BIG BUTT! – Those jerks are just ONE or two guys of sooooo many more who DO play by the rules and are awesome people and examples of what a phenomenal industry we all proudly belong to! – Woo Hoo! It’s true of magic, hypnosis, speaking, information products biz... all over. Theses slim-balls are the ‘exception’ rather than the rule. Sad how they get an unfair amount of attention from us for the rotten things they do instead of aaaaaall the rest of the guys and gals who ARE, in fact super cool people who love this business and love the arts we all appreciate so much while advancing our cause! Bravo to all the unsung heroes of our business who do what is right with out all the adulation they deserve! BRAVO!
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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Colin Gilbert New user 77 Posts |
Yes Dean I agree again with you to some degree. The scumbags do get a lot of unfair attention. BUT! one man with a mission can do a lot of harm. Just for doing what he did, Mark Chapman is probably Just as well known as John Lennon. Who took the quick route to 'stardom'?
I for one won't shed any tears when Rob Stiff actually is. |
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
Quote:
"I for one won't shed any tears when Rob Stiff actually is." Hehehehehe... funny and profound all at the same time!
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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HypnotizeAmerica Veteran user 399 Posts |
Sorry guys I have been out of touch for a week or so and came back to see this thread has taken off.
First, to SC, I got your second email about it being a bootleg copy and I agree, if you're making copies and reselling them you need to be taken down, hard. Let me see if I can clear up my first post with a specific example. A friend of my purchased a program that he licensed to help him get media interviews. It was several CD's in a binder and a licensing certificate (sp) that didn't even have his name filled out. He has also purchased a product for a market he no longer is working in that that came with a special report to send to customers that was licensed. If he no longer uses that report in his business do you think it is ok for him to resell that program. So if you were working a high school market and wanted to go up to corporate and wanted nothing to do with schools again (remove the special report, etc) and you singed nothing about the licensing agreement, etc. do you think that person has the right to resell that program. Just wondering. HA |
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
All great questions...
STILL, it ONLY matters what the license agreement was and is. He should simply abide by the terms and agreements he purchased. I WILL add that it's OK to contact the license issuer and see what THEY have to say about the situation. He may be pleasantly surprised at the generosity of the licenser. The bottom line is still to be the person of his word and agreement. “The RIGHT thing is not always easy, but it is ALWAYS the RIGHT THING, regardless of how we “feel”. – Right? I am at your service and In HIS Service, Deano <><
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
How is it so confusing?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
Hehehehehehe...
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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