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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Your lucky not to have had a bad experience. I am not saying self taught is bad. I am saying encouraging 15 - 18 year olds to "just go out and do it on their friends" is reckless, irresponsipal and just beyond words that this board allows.
How do most stage hypnotists learn? Personally from a mentor. Maybe it is an Aussie thing like heaving boomerangs at Kangaroos I don't know, but it is unsafe period. How many books do you recomend? Which books do you recomend?> The problem withs self taught is you have NO way to know what is crap and what is not. With no guidence you have to guess and that is a bad thing. You got lucky fine. Do you think EVERYONE will get as lucky? I doubt it. And here is the thing. You don't seem to care whose saftey you compromise. THAT is what I find totally appauling.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Strangelittleman Regular user Sydney Aus 184 Posts |
Ok, it might be a skip thing (aussie) to be self taught, myself my first success was at 16 - with my brother. Most others I have spoken to had similar expereince, all being self taught.
Also, why is it always luck when someone does something another way and acheives the right results. Secondly, I take ALOT of care in my subjects safety and ALWAYS have. If a 16 yr old is looking into hypnosis do you really think "wait till your older" is going to be a viable option...it leads to underground and hence dangerous work. If he's on here discussing his desire and what he's doing then atleast you can guide to resources. Also - unless I'm suggesting something illegial (in which case please feel free to point out which countries etc its illegal as its not here) I see no reason this would be against board rules. Finally, it doesn't take much to see whats crap and whats not, the rubbing of two braincells together normally gives the right answer. As for suggested books, its already been suggested in a prior thread - McGills book, which is the bomb! Ps - Boomerangs are not that heavy that you heave them....its more like a flicking action =) |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
There ya go the very book you suggest is not that great. See my point? It has some techniques in it that are there for the sake of completness, but really are dangerous!
That really isn't as good a book as you suggest. It says NOTHING about abreactions and how to deal with them at any real length. Certianly not enough to help. And a guide to resources is not what most want here. They want quick answers and 'let me do it even though I am a kid'. Not smart.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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mota Inner circle 1658 Posts |
I'm not saying you can't learn yourself...but the mistakes are all there, waiting to be made. With more training you can learn from the experiences of others instead of painfully learning from your own.
So, since you are self-taught let's check your education. Not trying to be difficult, but I do want to see how completely you have thought this through. You haven't had a lawsuit yet. So, in the interests of preventing problems before they happen I'll ask... Do you know what most hypnotism lawsuits are about? Over 90% of stage hypnotism lawsuits allege basically the same thing and claim the same type of harm...what is it? If you don't know this, you are missing a big part of your education. |
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Strangelittleman Regular user Sydney Aus 184 Posts |
First First - Danny, Yes its not the be all and end all of books, I'm yet to find that one book, that one golden book that removes the need for any others...im sure its out there though. Not meaning to come across rude, but seriously, all books have some level of flaw, no author will be able to cover each topic totally.
Yet it IS a decent book to start off with...in my opinion anyway. And personally - don't be so hard on kids, do you really think they are on here seeking approval, or perhaps advice? Now - as lawsuits are a rare thing here (infact I know of only one hypnotist that has been sued...and hes the ONLY person I know that's been sued) I cant answer your question. Reason, I've never been worried about a suit....thats right. If that's a gapping hole in my education in your opinion, well that's one your entitled too...personally I think it minor. I always conduct myself profesionally and NEVER step anywhere close the the line of degrading any commitee member. I have had a show/gig/party/whatever a week for the past 12 months and not one complaint.....thats not including the non paying stuff since I was a kid. I agree though Mota - teaching is preferable....if your A)inclined that way B)able to afford it and C) able to find a real person......but lets not squash the old self taught individuals in the process... Oh - and the one hypnotist....his was for something REALLY BAD - and that was BEFORE he thought of inducing the subject.... |
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leapinglizards Inner circle 1263 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-07-11 00:53, mota wrote: Mota, I would like to know the answer to this question. My Guess: Where stage hypnosis is concerned, something along the lines of "emotional distress" or some such.
Leaping Lizards!!! Who knew it was possible.
<BR> <BR>www.LeapingLizardsMagic.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Actually I am betting on saftey issues personally.
IF your not thinking law suit then you hav no opinion either way about them. In the litigius society we now live you MUST consider it sorry. Yours is probably a bit better off in that regard, lucky you. Actaully it is FAR better to have people to guide you thru the minefields of trial and error. Here is my problem with "self taught" if you will indulge me for a few seconds. It implies a certian trial and error process. Well your trying and erroring with someones mind. NOT your own. What do you do when you get it wrong? We all make mistakes, human and all. What do you do when one happens? OOps sorry?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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mota Inner circle 1658 Posts |
Danny has the right answer. Almost all stage hyp lawsuits are because someone got physically hurt. Many routines can do this.
If you let your participants go to the floor, if you have chairs too close together, if you have someone slip in a dance contest, you lose. You have to watch everything with an eye to the physical safety of your participants. Once you start thinking of it you start to really change your show. An example from my early years...grad party, 4AM. Show over, time to bring them out. One guy doesn't want to come out of trance, about an 18 year old male in excellent sports shape...no problem. If you have done many shows you get this, people not coming out. But...he was shaking, almost convulsing, and was slightly foaming at the mouth. So, you haven't had training...what happened to him and what do you do? Remember, you have hundreds of people watching you and you need to do something NOW. So, in the few seconds you have read this what is in your mind now? What is your immediate solution? |
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leapinglizards Inner circle 1263 Posts |
YES, and THAT is why I got out of stage hypnosis years ago, and went and got the training and went in the clinical direction. People sitting nice, quietly, safely in a recliner while I drone on
Leaping Lizards!!! Who knew it was possible.
<BR> <BR>www.LeapingLizardsMagic.com |
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Xargos Loyal user Brussels 268 Posts |
Quote:
Remember, you have hundreds of people watching you and you need to do something NOW. So, in the few seconds you have read this what is in your mind now? What is your immediate solution? Slap him with a trout ? |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Xargos come on now where are ya gonna get a trout? SALMON!
You get half credit! But even through the humor we find the real situation that mota speaks of. It is horrible and we joke for it is not happening now. BUT lets face it not many books really cover the necessary procedures. Certianly the Encylopedia does not. What mota describes happens some times. Lots of ways to handle it. Sometimes it is just someone looking for more attention. Sometimes it is someone actually having trouble getting themselvs out of trance. And every variable inbetween. Once I had an 10 year old girl on stage in Key Largo. Parrents happy as a clam she was there with the older people. After the show, which was about 11pm she didn't get unlathargic. (is that a word?) NOTHING helped to get her really moving. Turns out her bed time was about 8:30. Well NOTHGING was gonna get her awake except sleep. I started to almost worry, then her FATER actually mentioned the bed time thing. Next day running at the pool like a chicken with the Colnel behind him. So books are not the be all and end all. Experience helps a lot, and having someone give you personal instruction saves you a LOT of problems in the future.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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hkwiles Special user Howard Wiles 797 Posts |
The word is lethargic from the word lethargy
as in lazy. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Thanks Howard, I couldn't get her moving.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts |
Okay, I've been away too long, it seems. In the Land Down Under, people don't seem to be as litigation-happy as they are up here. Not that big a deal. However, in the situations that several people have mentioned, I am willing to bet that even lawsuit-averse Aussies would consider going to their solicitors and filing action unless the hypnotist really knew what he or she was doing.
So, some basic questions have to be asked of those who are self-taught: When dealing with an abreactive subject, what are the defining signals of an hysteric response prior to the reaction? Catatonia occurs spontaneously in a subject during a routine. The subject is now seemingly unresponsive. What do you do? During your induction, a subject starts flailing his or her arms wildly while as you were describing them sinking into the depths of relaxing trance. How do you deal with that? These are some of the possibe things that can, and HAVE happened in stage hypnosis shows over the years. Now consider some of the more common ones - a volunteer responds dramatically to a trigger to go back into trance while standing up and falls to the floor, thumping his or her head, loudly. Same scenario, but they do it from their chair on stage ... or in the audience... During the ballet dancers routine, one of your volunteers bumps into another one and pops his knee, causing a trip to the hospital (this happened to ME as a volunteer, so don't say it doesn't happen - it does). You are leaving the show and see three people clustered around one of your volunteers. One of them says one of your trigger words and the volunteer drops into trance. Deal with it. As you are leaving the show, you notice a kid in the audience still staring at a point on stage where the "funny movie" was, chuckling to himself. He refuses to take any suggestions that the movie is over. Cope. It's situations like these that led to my ebook on safety for the stage hypnotist. If anyone's interested, PM me about it. There's LOTS more than just this simple stuff. Like agents, groupies and the dreaded mic cord... Lee Darrow, C.H. (who's feeling a bit Socratic today)
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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Strangelittleman Regular user Sydney Aus 184 Posts |
Other than popping a knee, I've seen many similar expereinces. My full time job revolves a lot around OH&S (Occupational Health and Safety) so like a lot of things my thinking is already geared in that direction (Ie placement of objects, slip/trip hazards etc).
Also its standard practice to get liability insurance for those disasters (which I have) and Im sure you all already know, its not cheap. A lot of venues also have insurance which covers act's - but for private parties its on your shoulders to get it. Finally as Lee has said, we seriously are far removed from the america's, litigation being a rare as hens teeth thing, unless linked to a criminal event. Again, Experience is great, teachers, great...if you cant find one, its not your way of learning, the cost is out of reach, whatever....your only option is to learn solo. |
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mota Inner circle 1658 Posts |
Danny is two for two...you use a salmon. But what if you don't have a fresh one ready?
OK, part two of the abreaction. I gave the clue when I said, "...in excellent sports shape." People who are heavily muscled get cramps easier. There was one more thing I noticed when I got up to him...he was still wet from the hot tub they had at the grad party. He had come up on stage pretty much straight from the hot tub, then went deep into trance in a gym where someone had opened a door for ventilation, leaving him, and only him, right in a cold draft off Lake Superior, in deep trance relaxed with very little movement for an hour. He was hypothermic and having muscle cramps. Covered him with a blanket and warmed him up...he then came out of trance and was fine. The principal of the school was understanding, as was he...he said he still had a great time. But never again will I take a volunteer at a party where there is a hot tub without first finding out how long it has been since they were in the hot tub, especially if they are heavily muscled. Standard routines can bite you too. How many stage hyps have done Elvis? Seems like a safe routine, right? About twenty years ago I was doing a show. I chose a girl to be Elvis, gave her the plastic guitar and had her open her eyes and have at it... Trouble is we were on a stage that was five feet up from the audience floor and she decided she was going to jump from the stage for her fans to catch her. She opened her eyes and took off running and jumped from the stage before I could react. To add to the dilemna, she was built when meat was cheap (to paraphrase Tom Mullica) so there was a lot of mass and momentum in this jump. Unbelievably, the crowd caught her and thought it was part of the act. Now when I do Elvis the fans are the other subjects on stage and Elvis plays to them, not the crowd...but who woulda' guessed? Another time I did the standard post-hypnotic where you trigger them to respond at the end of the show. I sent them back to their seats and hit the trigger word where the guy was to start warning others, "THE BRITISH ARE COMING". Problem was, he really believed it and wanted nothing to do with it. He started screaming the British are coming and took off like a bat out of hell, out the gym and down the hallway full blast to who knows where...he was going to get away from the British... Many things can suprise you. There is another thought that has been mentioned here I will expand on. It has been mentioned one should not learn by playing with other people's minds. Now that we understand the physical risk is even greater than the emotional risk that increases the importance of doing everything you can to learn as much as you can. Just because you might not get sued doesn't make it right to risk other people's minds and bodies because you are learning it from a book. My first book was the first version of Ormond McGill's book...there were many, many painful experiences in my learning curve that were avoidable had I received appropriate instruction. Most of those painful experiences were very simple things I just didn't anticipate because "I was learning solo." You owe it to the people who are trusting you with their mind and body to do as much as you can to get training. Otherwise you could really hurt them. The "I'm teaching myself" idea works good until you experience this. If you learn solo, you are taking risks with others health...you don't have the right to do that when you have other options. Even if you never get sued using people who trust you as lab rats for learning just doesn't seem right. In this time in history you can get training if you really want to...I can't afford to learn to do it right it is no excuse to put others at physical and emotional risk. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Liabity insurance does NOTHING for the person on stage at the time of incident. That is what most people miss. (Not Lee obviously as I believe he is teaching a seminar of some sort)
Mota takes the time to describe what can and will happen if you do it long enough. No offence to the land down under, but if you have a "full time job" how much hypnosis are you actually doing? Sorry but it is not as much as if it was your full time job. I am not saying you are great, bad or indifferent, simply that your experience may not be as extensive as you think. The point is that saftey issues are first. Lee teaches it, Mota and I scream about it, and your answer is not how to avoid things, or fix things or handle them, it is " I have insurance.". Not what we were hoping for.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Strangelittleman Regular user Sydney Aus 184 Posts |
Ok - let me say this - I do have a full time job (40 hrs a week infact)....so does almost all the performers I've met here, there is not the work unless you move into therapy aswell......again, not my cup of tea. I spend most of my nights in study. Have since I was a kid (yep, one of those book worms).
I also spend a lot of time at work in study....I have a great job that way Now, you brought up litigation - to which I again say I have a safety net (people down here that sue, would have no matter what happened) so yes I have insurance. I have also not said once - "don't get a teacher" - I presented an option, and probably the only alternative I can think of. I also don't think my expereince is the be all and end all....infact I think its very limited. Then again the day I think it is extensive is the day I quit, no one is 100% prepared for what may or may not happen. You guys can continue to have a shot, and I'll happily defend, although I find this to be circular in logic. Ill reiterate a point, if your inclined towards teaching, can afford it and can find a REAL teacher, go for it. Or are you all really telling me that unless you do you should not get invloved in hypnosis. Finally - I do my best to ensure the health and safety, both physically and mentally of anyone that I utilize in a performance. The upmost care is utilized, I worry about the individuals on stage as though they are family. |
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mota Inner circle 1658 Posts |
I want to be very gentle as it is clear you do care quite a bit and frankly seem plenty intelligent enough to become a very good stage hypnotist.
Danny does stage full-time...I also perform for a living and have no "job"...I believe Lee Darrow is also a full-time performer (but I could be wrong). Those who do this, and have done this for years are saying the same thing...those that are hypnotic hobbyists are saying something else. I have come to the conclusion after my experiences that a person should not do stage hypnotism without training. I do not think stage hypnotism is something for a casual performer. My first book I mentioned, but I also had personal tutoring from an old hypnotist. My hypnotism skills increased dramatically when I began conversing with the late Tony Andruzzi. I made another major jump in skills when I took a stage hypnotism seminar from Geoff Ronning. If you are looking for a mentor check him out. He is in the US, but if you can't find someone local he has much experience mentoring long distance. Perhaps just contact your hypnotists locally...ask them and see what they say. Personal training is the best. You can care about your participants on stage very deeply but still not know what to look for or what to do when the unexpected happens. When a mistake is made because a person didn't get training because it was "too expensive" it is not the performer who suffers. The person who suffers is the one who trusted you knew what you were doing. |
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Strangelittleman Regular user Sydney Aus 184 Posts |
Mota, although I don't consider it a hobby it is something I'm moving slowly away from thanks mostly to pressure from several local individuals....long story but lets just say stage workers are not appreciated by the therapists over here.
While I do know three decent (infact very good but I didn't say that stage guys over here, they are also part timers, due to the limited number of gigs that seem possible. All would prefer to go full time, but its not able to pay the rent so to speak. They also live in other capitals (Melbourne being the largest grouping). As for training - the only people that train in stage seem to be US individuals, the schools in Aus are for therapy (I've applied to one, but was knocked back due to my stage work, I kid you not). I also converse often with two pro's, and find it helpful as h**l. Yet most of the workers over here are self taught....even some of our bigger names started themselves....only later on did they do any "training", a lot later on, and then get kicked out of the associations they joined the moment they did a show....again, don't know what the US associations are like. While I understand the points being made across, and to some extent agree, personal/enviromental limitations do create scenario's out of the norm (or create the norm). 12k for a course that is semi relevant is a lot of dosh....let alone for something which you MIGHT get part-time work from. And no - I do not consider it just a matter of money, but looking at all three schools over here, therapy and counselling are the only things taught which are not of a nature Im interested in(not that I care, I have Hypnosis for medical and dental at home)..thats if they took me to start with (which has not been the case). By the way, I don't consider myself a hobbyist...no insult taken, just a different set of circumstance's, opinion and ideas to the norm on here. |
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