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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Patina'd vs. freshly polished copper cups? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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fortasse
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In terms of typical audience reaction in an informal, close-up setting, do you think it's generally preferable to work with freshly polished cups or with cups that have acquired the aged look (dk.brown patina)?

While I'm at it, Wrights Copper Cream is a great way to polish your copper cups. Put it on with the included sponge, adding a bit of water as you go along, and then you rinse it off. Simple as that. Great thing about this method (compared with Never-Dull, for example) is that you don't have to get your fingernails all blackened from tarnish.

Fortasse
RaveMastaE
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I don't think it really matters when you're performing. The shiny ones will catch their eye a bit more, but it seems to me that they are usually more curious about the ones with a patina on it, almost like the cups have a history or story that they want to know.
Ragiv
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I rigorously keep my cups polished. I dislike the discoloration of copper, especially when you can see all of the finger prints.
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Bill Palmer
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If you let copper actually patinize, there will be no fingerprints. Instead, you will have a deep brown cup, almost coffee colored. Go to my web site and look at the cups on the "Traditional Cups" page -- look at the Stubby cups. Those are the natural color of patinized copper.

Also, take a look at the Charlie Miller cups, near the bottom of the same page.

The advantage of patinized cups over shiny ones is that if you have something hidden in your hand, it will not reflect in the surface of the cup.
"The Swatter"

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fortasse
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Bill :

Cup sets come in copper, brass, gold, silver, pewter, aluminum, stainless steel, tin and chrome........... but not in bronze (at least there are none on the market that I know of except for the RNT "church bronze" cups). How come?

Fortasse
Bill Palmer
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Actually, many copper cups are made of bronze. Brasses and bronzes are very closely related. For example Copper Alloy #C46400 is a naval brass that is about 60% copper, .2% lead, .1% Iron, and the rest is Zinc, with traces of Arsenic and Phosphorus or Antimony. Copper alloy #C67300 is a bronze that is almost identical, except for the addition of Manganese and Silicon. Bronze and brass are some of the earliest alloys we have.

The church bronze is very similar to the leaded yellow bronze that is used in banjo tone rings. I have a sheet with more than 2 dozen different formulas for that particular purpose.

Guild metal also qualifies as a bronze.

In fact, I know of a couple of alloys that are called brasses or bronzes almost interchangeably. The definition of brass used to be "an alloy of copper and zinc" while bronze was "an alloy of copper and tin." Nowadays, there are many alloys that contain all three ingredients, plus others as well.

Pure copper is very soft, but will work harden as it is spun. And there are grades of copper as well. Some of the cups in the collection exhibit characteristics of being made of very soft copper.
"The Swatter"

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Mad Jake
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Bronze Phoenix 2 cups will be out shortly after the 4th of July holiday. We'll be doing a lot of darker bronze cups as well, including the Traditionals slated for release this July.

Jake
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
geemack
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Greg McNeil Peoria,Illinois
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Quote:
On 2006-06-29 20:00, Ragiv wrote...

I rigorously keep my cups polished. I dislike the discoloration of copper, especially when you can see all of the finger prints.

Regarding the fingerprints, I posted this in another thread some time ago...

When I get a new set of cups I wash them often, regularly, in plain dish soap and water. I dry them thoroughly with a soft clean towel each time to avoid water spots. That helps the patina develop gently and evenly over several weeks, after which I wash them less often. The regular washing early in their lives seems to prevent that blotchy uneven look.

If I get a set of old cups which have already developed a blotchy, unattractive patina, I give them a good polishing with Brasso. Then I wash them well, again with dish soap and water, and dry them. That takes off the little residue of Brasso and gets them started towards an even patina. Again I'll wash them regularly for a few weeks, and less often after the smooth, caramel brown patina has developed.

Greg
fortasse
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Isn't the problem with Brasso that it actually removes the brass and that less abrasive polishes like Never-Dull are therefore better? I know that's what George Robinson of Viking Magic always says.

Fortasse
Bill Palmer
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Brasso does remove a little bit of brass, but it is a minuscule amount. Tabasco sauce is a very good brass polish. Simichrome and Flitz are both excellent polishes.
"The Swatter"

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geemack
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Greg McNeil Peoria,Illinois
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Quote:
On 2006-06-30 00:37, fortasse wrote...

Isn't the problem with Brasso that it actually removes the brass and that less abrasive polishes like Never-Dull are therefore better? I know that's what George Robinson of Viking Magic always says.

Although Brasso removes a certain amount of metal with each polishing, I generally use it only once on any given set of cups... maybe twice... in a lifetime. Some amount of material is actually removed with any polishing product. Those which have almost no abrasive materials are still dissolving away the surface layer of patina/tarnish. Even ketchup, vinegar, Tobasco sauce, and similar products contain varying amounts of acids and work by dissolving and removing the surface oxidation. Either way it is a non-issue for those of us who like our cups with a patina and only clean them with soap and water.

Greg
Ragiv
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Quote:
On 2006-06-29 20:52, Bill Palmer wrote:
If you let copper actually patinize, there will be no fingerprints. Instead, you will have a deep brown cup, almost coffee colored. Go to my web site and look at the cups on the "Traditional Cups" page -- look at the Stubby cups. Those are the natural color of patinized copper.

Also, take a look at the Charlie Miller cups, near the bottom of the same page.

The advantage of patinized cups over shiny ones is that if you have something hidden in your hand, it will not reflect in the surface of the cup.



That looks way better than cups that have discolored unevenly. By the way, I still use the Udays Smile
Jodie - SOCTV
Ron Reid
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Greg:

Thanks for sharing the technique with Brasso and soap/water. I have a question for anybody here: What is it that makes the patina? Is it the oils in your hand coming in contact with the metal?

Ron
Terry Holley
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I polished a number of old sets of Paul Fox cups with Flitz over 4 years ago and they have not produced a patina. I take it that Flitz places some kind of coating on the cup.

Any thought on what to do to get a patina going. I surmise I may need to repolish with some other product (?).

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Bill Palmer
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Polish them with Flitz or Brasso, doesn't really matter which, then give them a good washing with dishwasher detergent and water. That will remove the coating. You can also try cleaing them with alcohol, but that may leave a film of oil, if there is a waxy coating on them from the polish.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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fortasse
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Isn't carnuba wax also supposed to be good for "locking" in the patina once you get it looking the way you want?

Fortasse
Bill Palmer
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Yes, it is. But if you have a coating in place already, the patina won't develop. You might be able to use a chemical degreaser to prepare the cups after polishing them.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Mad Jake
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You can purchase oxidizers for specific Patinas on copper, zink, brass etc. This speeds up the process of Mother Nature on the cups. While the chemical isn't expensive you have to do this in a well ventilated building or outside even as most of the oxidizers contain an acidic base to speed this up.

You can check out http://www.caswellplating.com for the chemicals. Do a search for Oxidizer

Jake
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
Bill Palmer
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My own experience with these, and I have used several of them, has been less than ideal. The best application of this kind of compound is done with heat. This is the way Willi Seidl did his oxidation.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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flimnar
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Seems like on an earlier thread Jim Riser said that putting the cups in a bag with sawdust soaked with cat urine works great and only takes a couple of days. Hmmmmmm, then again, maybe I'll just wait and let it happen naturally......

Flimnar
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