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ronfour Regular user 162 Posts 
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The Dowser,
How many times have you seen a dice sliding team in action? Posted: Jul 25, 2006 8:53am ------------------------------------- Lee Darrow, Can you describe what happened in the three instances you mentioned? I don't understand what it means to challenge a roll. Who is making the challenge? |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 15717 Posts
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You don't need a news letter or play or observe to know who is winning at what. That's all casino gamblers talk about.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22848 Posts
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Funny when you guys talk of card counting, something you are obviously not well versed in, you speak of ancient problems like check spread. NO counter uses a huge check spread any more. Heck "Wonging" in is even kind of gone away. The BIG PLAYER theory has been cracked.
BUT still and all there are FAR more guys a sucess at card counting than at controled dice throws. tommy is making the point that Jason and Z jumped on me for in the first place. You guys make it seem as if it happens all the time. As if it is easy. My simple statement which caused the hubub was I have never seen anyone do it in a casino environment. MANY claim to be able to do it and I have watched over a dozzen guys fail. tommy is right in that they talk about who is winning. ESPECIALLY as it helps their own hard luck stories. If someone is winning regularly it is better than a newsletter. 3 forms of communication, telephone, telegraph, tell a gambler! It would spread from Vegas to Tunica in 10 minutes. Funny Dowser your aware of 1 team being backed off. 1! and that is a lot? I know far more card counters than just 1. Your almost making the point for us. My arguement that security is not incompetent has a huge bearing. I really mean that not ALL casino staff are incompetent. Nowhere near. Surviellance isn't going to call a no roll from the room. Sure it may happen once in a while, but not as a rule. They are more interested in the "railbirds" than dice scooters. BUT it is the pit personel which your dealing with. Once the call is made to them though if they happen to be watching the table,(good luck with that one) they make the decision.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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The Dowser Special user Canada 765 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-07-25 08:45, ronfour wrote: Zero. You? Dowser Posted: Jul 26, 2006 8:22am ------------------------------------- Quote:
Surveillance isn't going to call a no roll from the room. Sure it may happen once in a while, but not as a rule. They are more interested in the "railbirds" than dice scooters. But it is the pit personnel which your dealing with. Once the call is made to them though if they happen to be watching the table,(good luck with that one) they make the decision. -Almost exactly what I already said...except that I disagree with you on one point. Surveillance is not there to make decisions for pit staff , whether they received a call or not. They will inform the pit staff or the shift manager of what they saw and the pit staff (or in serious instances the shift manager) will still make the decision. Dowser Posted: Jul 26, 2006 8:24am ------------------------------------- Quote:
On 2006-07-25 10:56, Dannydoyle wrote: Who are "you guys" ? Dowser Posted: Jul 26, 2006 8:29am ------------------------------------- Quote:
On 2006-07-03 19:06, Dannydoyle wrote: Your original statements were that controlled shots were not possible in a casino. Dowser Posted: Jul 26, 2006 8:31am ------------------------------------- Quote:
On 2006-07-04 11:02, Dannydoyle wrote: This is the position you took that caused the "hubub", Bub. Dowser Posted: Jul 26, 2006 8:46am ------------------------------------- Quote:
On 2006-07-04 18:33, Dannydoyle wrote: In this thread and others you have consistently attacked those with differing opinions by suggesting that they have no experience or "have never set foot in a casino" or they are unqualified to speak on the subject. You then claim to have surveillance experience when you only learned how to spell it three posts ago (your welcome by the way). Here is a Dannydoyle quote from another thread : "I have never met anyone who can riffle stack during a legit game I was in. But I am sure these guys exist." Yet you are sure controlled dice shooters don't exist because you have never met them either! I've read lot's of nonsense from posters who try desperately to assert themselves as knowledgeable and I have considered it par for the course, but your approach of attacking others credibility is getting tiring and you will get called on it every time...especially when your own house is clearly made of glass. Dowser |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22848 Posts
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Dowser the only reason I spelled it correctly is I cut and pasted YOUR post with the word in it. Lazy is my middle name. How does that matter to the point?
My ORIGINAL post that you quoted said MOST OF WHAT IS WRITTEN IS CRAP! It is. When someone is an EXPERT or is asserting a position on something my position is that if they are NOT actually experienced in what they are talking about, they are merly a story teller. Yep sorry. I am not CONSTANTLY attacking anyone for this. Matter of fact it has gone by the wayside till you just brought it up again. By trying to gain "context" for an opinion, you call it attacking. I feel, and so do many others, that if you have never DONE the thing that you are supposedly an EXPERT at, well then it does affect the way your opinion is colored. This is not an attack, it is an attempt to gain context. YOU do the same when you say "you can't even spell the job title". Why is this any different? You seem to think somehow spelling has a berring on the actual job, when in reality VERY little spelling goes on except for report writing. Heck the first paragraph of the report is already written where I was. Makes things easier. So when I contend that actually doing the thing makes a difference, how is that the same that telling me a different skill makes a difference. Did I ask either of them if they can spell anything? Or recite poetry? Or tap dance? No I asked if they have ever been in a casino distracting the people the way they claim can be done. Don't you think a guy who has DONE it before and says, here is how I did it, holds more water than the guy who says "I read that this guy did this"? This is not an attack as YOU brought it up, but it seems common sense to me. I will make my original contention again. In a real world situation most of what is written is CRAP about controled dice throws. If the contention that the diamonds make it a LOT tougher on the process (a statement which at Jason's prompting I DID revise by the way) too bad. I re stated it isn't "impossible" but incredibly difficult, which is the whole reason for their inclusion on the table. If you can't see the difference in an urban legend and guys who are just tough to find, well that is your problem. I can't figure why it is ME you single out as tommy, Lee and many others are in the same camp as myself, but you attack me because I spell the worst. Read tommy's posts, Lee's posts, pretty much exactly word for word what I say. But keep attacking me. No problem
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mr. Z Special user 818 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-07-26 10:22, Dannydoyle wrote: Then "what is written?" What is CRAP about it? If you're looking for anecdotes with names and faces of people who've done this then you're gonna be looking for a long time--there's no reason why a successful thief would feel the need to advertise, unlike magicians who like to give themselves a hearty pat on the back. I'd recommend reading the craps chapter in Forte's CGP book, where he cites a few examples, among them the legendary "Mr. SA" who could "throw the shot with air" and won over a million dollars his first year in town--there is also mention of another colorful crew who's mechanic was so pitiful but was saved by world-class turns, netting the team scores in the six-figure range. Archie Karas was another dice scooter as well.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22848 Posts
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I thought "colorfull" was exactly what you didn't want to be? I thought you wanted to be unnoticed? I guess I am wrong sorry.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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The Dowser Special user Canada 765 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-07-26 10:22, Dannydoyle wrote: You were not singled out for your differing opinion or even for your spelling (which you are correct in saying that it is the same kind of attack I am complaining about...it was a taste of your own medicine but I'm sure that was clear to you). You were singled out due to your arrogant attacks on others in this and other threads in the gambling section. You have said that other people have "never set foot in a casino" are "story tellers" and you have even suggested that I don't work for a real casino! All this based on the fact that they / I disagree with you. You have not been able to back up any of your arguments with fact but continue to "chuck focus" by making it about credibility. You can restate your position in a more innocent manner if you wish but your previous posts speak for them selves and I frankly don't have time to continue quoting you to keep you honest nor do I think anyone cares to read them again. I will however say that It is not my intention to hound anyone so regardless of how you respond, I will stand down. I also retract my original statement about it being above your character to admit when you are wrong...as per your previous post. Cheers. Dowser |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22848 Posts
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Dowser didn't I change my first statement more than once? Yep did. So stop the passive agressive sarcasam and nonsense. Guess it is all you have left when your flat out wrong, and more than one person says so.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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ronfour Regular user 162 Posts
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I think I saw an unsuccessful attempt of a controlled dice shot on the TV series "Takedown". It happened at the end of one of the shows. Did anyone else see this?
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mook New user 60 Posts
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That episode was pretty sad.
Now as far as Dannydoyle goes, I've been following this thread and I still can't find anywhere that Z and Jason have said that controlled dice shots are done with any ease or frequency. Dannydoyle obviously has NOT worked ON the casino floor, as you would know that some of the most agressive, superstitious, and cranky players can be found at the craps table. You CAN'T even say the word "seven" around the table because most believe that you are jinxing the hand. So to call it a "no roll" just because both dice don't hit the back wall would make for an angry crowd, which is just plain bad business. Besides, the rule is that the shooter must ATTEMPT to hit the back wall. It's not uncommon to have one die fall short of the wall. In fact, occasionally, I've had to ask someone to try to hit the back wall, only to have the dice go off the table or into someone's drink in a subsequent roll. About 30 years ago, when I saw some of the sharpest craps dealers around, who had quick reflexes, when the stickman saw a slide shot going, he would hit the dice and call "no roll" before the dice even landed or at least quickly enough for most players not to see what the roll would have been, so that the players couldn't complain about the house trying to cheat them out of what might have turned out to be a winning decision. Good luck trying to find anyone (including myself- I'm just not that quick) with those reflexes nowadays. And besides, Dowser is right- the casinos try to call every dice shot they can because the more they call, they more they win in the long run. After working several jurisdictions in my casino career, it has been my experience that surveillance is generally clueless about craps. It takes a long time to truly know the game and surveillance training in craps is maybe 1 or 2 weeks long, if that. They don't pay much up there, so those who take the time to know the game go on to deal and probably, in most cases, make twice what he would have made in the surveillance room. In fact, I'll bet most surveillance operators stay away from craps altogether because it is difficult to watch, even if you do know the game. Someone earlier in this thread (Z, I think) said that the game is mostly verbal and hard to follow. I agree. (For example, if a dealer repeats a bet and then misplaces the bet, there is no way that surveillance would be able to refute it because they don't have audio to hear what was booked.) If by chance surveillance caught something suspicious in craps, I'd bet that it was only because they were first alerted by someone on the floor. Just my opinion... but one from experience. BTW: On craps and other games, I have had to call surveillance to settle disputes, only to have them take 30 minutes or more to tell me that there review was inconclusive. So much for the image of the almighty eye in the sky portrayed on all of those TV shows. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 15717 Posts
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"they don't have audio to hear what was booked."
Sorry but that is wrong Mook. I did not know this until a few months back, but I found out that casinos have secret mikes all over the casino.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22848 Posts
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But tommy what about his vast experience which tells him weather or not I have been on a casino floor? let him think what he will you will never change his mind no matter how many facts you bring to bear.
nope it is more important for him to get his attacks out against me, instead of answering the question. Don't worry about it tommy, let them rant about what they "believe" is right. It is ok, none of them have EVER DONE IT, and it is obvious. Me working in a casino seems to mean something. THEM ACTUALLY THROWING DICE in one and being able to control them under fire, and manipulate the staff, well that has no bearing. Go figure.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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iamslow Inner circle Proffessional Slacker 2012 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-07-31 15:57, tommy wrote: What casino in particular are you talking about?? I totally agree 100% with mook regarding his last post... Ive been working in the industry for 15 yrs which is a little less than half my life and I've spent the last 10 in the dice pit... and I have never ever heard of hidden microphones even in common areas as there is no feasibility in installing such devices, let alone how difficult it would be to pinpoint a conversation specially at the dice table... All the operators would hear on the mic. would be "**** this" or these dice are like ****** ice cubes" so in my 2 cent opinion, I highly doubt any commercial casino has any mic's for that purpose... Posted: Jul 31, 2006 7:31pm ------------------------------------- Quote:
On 2006-07-07 19:56, Mr. Z wrote: Mr Z, I would have to disagree regarding your last statement... A majority of scams don't involve the dice at least in my ongoing experience in the pit... Anyone that knows will tell you... although it would be one of the coolest looking ways(for a magician point of view) to scam, it isn't the method of choice... most scams happen with staff and it is usually off/on scams or setting up bets as well as capping bets and pretending to no notice losing bets, specially in the DC or Behind... Ive written this before about casino scams in general... The coolest looking scams are for magicians and it represents a small piece of the pie... why manipulate the tools when you can manipulate the money to get the money...Remember, as a stickman, your #1 priority is to keep your eyes on the dice no matter what... as a boxman, you priority is to also watch the dice as it gets sent out and returned to the center...so why in the world would anyone even consider trying to ring in some bad dice... If I was to choose, I would never screw with the dice... just my 2 cents
"Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
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mook New user 60 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-07-31 15:57, tommy wrote: Maybe in the UK, but not here. At least not in major casinos. |
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iamslow Inner circle Proffessional Slacker 2012 Posts
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Mook, read my post above...
"Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
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mook New user 60 Posts
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Gotcha, iamslow. However, I would like to add that I did work in a casino where OSHA (Occupational Safety & Health Admin.) came in and hooked mics up to the craps dealers to monitor noise levels. Apparently, someone complained that it was so loud in there that it was a work hazard. Anyway, the mics did not last long at all as we have laws here about needing a warrant (at least back then) to record conversations. But like I said, maybe in the UK they can use audio, but in major U.S. casinos, it's not likely you'll find that.
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Mr. Z Special user 818 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-07-31 19:31, iamslow wrote: Point taken. Perhaps I should've clarified and said "historically, most major craps scams..." etc... Putting bets up and players taking shots would contend for the most common scams, I agree. I believe like there's only 5 documented cases of scams involving gaffed dice surfacing in casinos in the last 30 years anyhow. Don't know if I necessarily agree with your last paragraph though. You want to "screw with the dice" to influence the outcome, obviously. Manipulating the bets doesn't make much sense considering you can press nearly any bet on the layout at anytime with the exception of the Don't Pass. Waking up the stick and box is a concern but keep in mind here in Vegas the boxman position is drying up fast.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 15717 Posts
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Maybe audio recording is illegal in the USA and might even be illegal in England. I can not prove that every casino in the world has hidden mikes but I am reliably informed by people, who have extensive knowledge of the gaming industry in England at least, that they do. Here is a place in England that makes such and I have seen casino surveillance equipment supply catalogues from companies in the USA that sell the same sort of thing. I am not sure but I think I have seen warnings in casino’s that say things like “Video and Audio Surveillance in Operation.” Maybe they need that warning to cover themselves legally. All I can say is, I do not talk any business in any casino, even in the wash room.
http://www.acldigital.com/productDetails.asp?id=85
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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ronfour Regular user 162 Posts
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MrZ,
Is there anywhere I can read about those documented cases? |
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Posted: Jul 25, 2006 12:45 pm 
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