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Pricholas New user 37 Posts |
What are your best?
What games can you use them for? I have only just picked up on this + and - one which I am trying to use on Texas holdem, any tips? |
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CardShark2004 Regular user 153 Posts |
Interesting, I never understood when people would talk about card counting and poker. Card counting seems like something that is used exclusively in conjunction with blackjack. Because (to paraphrase "bringing down the house") the game has a 'memory'. In poker the deck is shuffled after every deal/hand is over. I feel that calculating odds and knowing your outs is the only thing that is really necessary in Texas Hold 'Em. I really don't think you can apply card counting in any sort of effective manner to give you more of an advantage then just knowing odds etc.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Yes in stud poker however it helps to remember what cards have been folded but that's not card counting. Tracking is something different that is used in black jack but can be used in holdem and omaha and so on.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Craig Krisulevicz Special user Philadelphia, PA 647 Posts |
Card counting CAN be used in conjunction with poker, BUT (and I don't want to start a war here)....it can only be used, even remotely effective, in deeply dealt poker games, where cards are exposed consistently. An example of this is 4 or 5 handed baseball, where 36-45 cards are dealt out, with the possibility of the entire deck being dealt.
The only problem is that this conditional information will only give you a relative range of what is left unseen, and thus a relative probability range to adjust you bets. The problem that comes into play is the fractional betting; the proper risk/reward ratios. At this point, you will be forced to over or underbet based on the table's units, and of course, you'll be sacrificing your edge, or, taking on unnecessary risk for the given moment. I do think it could help you find the equilibrium(s) for the hand though. But overall, I'd say it's not worth the trouble. Who plays baseball anyways???
Who is John Galt?
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
What your describing in the first post is tracking. NOT counting. You track spacific groups of cards and apply that information to the remainder of the deck. It is usefull in Blackjack to be certian. I am not sure how it would apply to poker.
I am not really too sure how much more counting you need to do in poker other than to remember what cards you have seen and how it effects either your cards or your opponents cards. Either the likelyhood it will help your hand or help their hand. Really it takes about average intelligence. In holdem you don't really get much info as players fold their cards blind. Which is to say that you don't get to see them. Not much info involved there. Needless to say keep track of what you can see but not much help really.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts |
There's nothing to count in straight up Hold'Em that doesn't already factor into basic Hold'Em strategy.
Short and sweet, you can't count anything in straight Texas. |
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Pricholas New user 37 Posts |
WHAT is the difference between tracking and counting?
Im not too familiar on blackjack, can anyone fill me in on how to count cards at blackjack. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Counting is when you look at king of spades, queen of clubs and so on.
Tracking as in Blackjack is keeping track of "groups" of cards. For example the 2-6 of all suits. In blackjack the suits in general have no value, unless your playing bonous games. As a rule suits are not relevant. So any 2 is the same as any other 2. The 2-6 effect the deck in a similar fashion as to how the odds change when they are removed. (The 5 being the exception but don't ask it takes WAY too long to explain) So Blackjack counters will keep track of these "groups". No need to know spacific cards only groups. In say Gin Rummy it is more counting the exact cards. Each card has a spacific use. So knowing if the 10 of spades has been played, or in the other hand, is usefull knowlege. That is the basic difference. A basic hi lo count is simple enough. Every time you see a 2-6 come out of the deck it is + 1. Every time you see a 10-A come out it is - 1. The higher the count the better it is for you. 7-9 are ignored. When you get to the end of a full deck you are at 0. When you get to the end of 8 full decks you are at 0. That is as simple and basic as I can be in as short a time as we have here. There is a LOT more to it, and basic strategy is essential before even attempting to count. Go to HITORSTAND.com and that site will allow you to practice for free as well as explain some systems. Posted: Jul 6, 2006 3:17pm Sorry hitorstand.net NOT .com My bad.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Steve V Inner circle Northern California 1878 Posts |
Note: Danny you crossed up tracking and counting pal.
Steve V |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Actually no I didn't I don't think. If sorry but read it again. Counting is spacific cards, tracking is groups. if not again my bad
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Steve V Inner circle Northern California 1878 Posts |
We used the terms opposite, tracking was specific cards and counting was groups of high and low value...dang it, I'll go with whatever you want.
Steve V |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Well learn them one way and whateve it is stick to it! LOL
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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CardShark2004 Regular user 153 Posts |
So I assume, my preconceived notions were correct as far as hold em goes. And that being able to figure out the outs you have and calculating the odds of hands is basically all you need?
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Steve V Inner circle Northern California 1878 Posts |
Oh yeah, with hold 'em you need to calculate the likelyhood a card you need to win will come up vs the cards that will kill you.
Steve V |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Yea. Nothing to really count. All the cards you have access to you can see the whole time.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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mxray Loyal user 276 Posts |
No, counting is NOT keeping track of specific cards.
It is keeping track of any overall bias that may occur in the deck (or shoe) based on the value of cards that have already been played. For example, if all the face cards in a given deck had already been played, then it would be a pretty good bet that only numerics (non-face cards) remain, right? When 10-value cards are coming out, (remember that faces count as 10, in blackjack) this mathematically favors the player. When smaller cards cards (2-6) are coming out, this favors the house. 7, 8, and 9 are relatively neutral. So the most used counting system, Hi-Lo, assigns a +1 point value to 2-6 cards . Ten-value cards (and aces) are counted as being worth a -1 point each. This way a "running count" can be kept of the cards already played. (There's more to it than that, in order to calculate what's known as the "True count. ) But counters use this "true count" to let them know when a bias exists in the deck , and to what extent. Then they can alter both theire bet size and sometimes play strategy , to fit the situation mathematically and to be proportionate to their advantage at that moment. Tracking is the NUTS!! While it is based on traditional counting, it is keeping track of clumps or slugs of big cards, and basically betting up when that slug is coming out. (again, there is a lot more to it than just that!) Tracking is suited to playing shoes, not single or double deck. As everyone at the Café already knows, there is no such thing as a truly random shuffle. Tracking exploits that fact. Most casinos have a strict "house shuffle", and some are quite trackable, some are not. So usually, a tracker "maps" a shuffle to see if it is trackable or not. When its trackable, you track, when not, you might still be able to do traditional counting, if the conditions are right. What's interesting is that while mathematically oriented people are often attracted to counting, I have noticed that people who think a little more abstractly, and visually, are often better trackers. Hope this helps. MXRay |
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Steve V Inner circle Northern California 1878 Posts |
Have any of you read Mr. Lovells work in card counting? Very interesting material from a fellow smarter than most of us.
Steve V |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
I am just a poker player and you can shuffle track cards in poker if you know where a group of cards are or even where one card is before the riffle. You can then play the turn having a good idea what might hit the flop, forth street or the river. Some times it is useless info but at other times it is useful. It is not easy to know the position of cards before the riffle because of the wash but you can see a botton card with a sloppy dealer now and again and you can follow it. The endless chain priciple is a useful thing to learn.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Tommy though you can get in trouble tracking. IF your not dead on you may be playing hands you have no business playing. Same in Blackjack.
Most tracking in Blackjack is being eliminated by the shuffle machine. Many places are putting them in with the proposed reason of dealing more hands. Nice side benifit of eliminating tracking. That combined with how much they cut off really hurts shuffle tracking. Sorry if I confused anyone.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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mxray Loyal user 276 Posts |
Tommy, you are right, but yeah, you would have to find a dealer that doesn't wash the cards before the shuffle and doesn't strip either. Either one would be death to tracking in such a small group of cards.
I always wash and strip, and would be a little afraid of a dealer who doesn't. As I said some of the best trackers there are believe that both single and double deck games are not genereally trackable. I believe that even The Bishop himself has said so in print, but am too lazt to go look it up. There's just much possible variation with such a small number of cards. Danny is certainly right about tracking coming back to bite oyu in the arse if you are off. What I hate is when you'd had a really rich slug in the previous shoe, you know where the slug is (post shuffle), and some drunken ploppy cuts them out of play when they cut. All that work for nothing. I just want to scream!!! Yeah, shuffle machines are the worst. I always try to do my small part to instill a distrust of them among recreational players: Like stand behind a table where there is one, wait until a dealer makes a 21 or something after showing a loust card like a 5 or 6 and hitting half a dozen times. Then I say (fairly loudly) "Only a sucker would play against one of those deck stacking machines!!" , and walk off. Sure, I'm playing to the the supertitious nature of recreational players, but I'm not hurting them, and if enough of them refuse to play against them, the houses will quite using them. Another great one is to say " You know, if you go to the website of the company that makes those deck stacking machines, it it tells casino managers that using them will increase their profits... So I wonder where those increased profits come from? " . Just doing my little part. MXRay |
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