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Skip Way
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Skip, I would do something as you mentioned, but don't you think I would just come off as trying to evade a ticket? that's the last thing I want them to think.


Why wait until you're stopped. Next time you see a cop at a diner or coffee shop or just walking a beat...stop and talk to him...or her. "Would you mind if I asked you a question...?" You call, James. I know some just can't do it. I've always welcomed conversations with anyone who approached me.

Skip
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James F
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Haha! See how stupid I am sometimes? Yeah I could easily do that, wouldnt be a problem. I think Ill definitely give that a try. We do sometimes have slight small talk with the officers we see in Quick Trip (a gas station) but nothing more than "hey, how is your night" etc. But yeah, Ill definitely do that. Thanks a lot Skip.

James
LobowolfXXX
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On 2006-07-06 08:16, Lyndel wrote:
James,

Speaking as a former police officer, first let me say this... I don't know how large of a community that you live in, but if it's rather small, chances are, the police force is rather small. That means that the "same officers" are going to be out there every night patrolling the streets for crime.

Now, by no means am I saying that there are no bad apples in the barrel, but Ross does makes a good point. Most law abiding citizens with the exeption of bakers, newspaper delivery people, street sweepers, and a couple other professions are at home sleeping at 3:00 AM. That leaves - for the most part - only those involved in drug activities, burglaries, etc. to be out there creeping around on the streets. Of course there are exceptions to the rules. I'm not generalizing everyone out in the wee hours to be criminals, but then again, we shouldn't generalize all police officers as people bent on harrassing you and your friends either.

Imagine one of these burglars cruising YOUR neighborhood looking for a car to steal and they zero in on yours. But only minutes before they decide to do the deed, a cop pulls them over and finds out what they are doing riding around a neighborhood at 3:00 AM. Now there is a record of the traffic stop and if your car does get stolen in the morning, detectives at least have a starting point from which to investigate the crime.

Here is my suggestion... Go ahead and contact the police department - not to complain on the officers... But to see if they have a "citizens orientation ride along program" and make arrangements to ride along on midnight shift with the officer. Spend a few hours in the other guys shoes and you might change the way you regard the guys and gals in uniform who put their very lives on the line for very little money to keep you, your family, and your friends safe at night while you sleep.


Lyndel


Or the police officers in question could go on a "sit along" at a local law school and learn that they're not allowed to make purely pretextual stops.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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There are well-settled constitutional (4th Amendment) issues for leaving these detentioned to the unbridled discretion of officers on the scene. Without reasonable and particularized suspicion of wrongdoing, the officers are NOT supposed to be picking and choosing whom to stop based on demographics (like age) or the appearance of the car. All bets are off, however, if they see anything wrong with the vehicle.

With respect to Steve's apparently bitter and clearly disturbing post, the reason people DO serve their country in the military is so we can live in a country where police officers CAN'T do whatever the hell they want, including "smack you upside the head with a nightstick."

Do law enforcement officers have a tough gig? Absolutely. But it's one they choose, and that choice necessitates following the rules. Police officers work for civilians, not vice versa; the ones who forget this do not only civilians, but their fellow officers who follow the rules, a major disservice.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Marvello
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On 2006-07-07 15:34, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Police officers work for civilians, not vice versa...

The next time you are pulled over be sure to remind the officer of the fact that you are a taxpayer and that you pay his salary. I am sure they will have something interesting to say about that.
Never criticize someone else until you have walked a mile in their shoes. Then, when you do criticize them, you will be a mile away from them and you will have their shoes.
Fredrick
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On 2006-07-06 04:34, rossmacrae wrote:
On the other, a lawyer friend of mine often points to cases where the "offense" was imaginary: "He was pulled over for a DWB; that's 'Driving While Black'."



Ross,

I need to clarify - do you mean that the officer pulled the person over for an imaginary offense or that DWB is an imaginary offense? I am not sure what you meant.

All the best ~ Fredrick
"Try to find the humanity in the magic and maybe you'll come up with something of your own. It's the humanity that gets you there, not techniques." Michael Moschen on Creativity
LobowolfXXX
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On 2006-07-07 17:03, Marvello wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-07-07 15:34, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Police officers work for civilians, not vice versa...

The next time you are pulled over be sure to remind the officer of the fact that you are a taxpayer and that you pay his salary. I am sure they will have something interesting to say about that.


It's only the ones who couldn't care less who need reminding. Sort of the legal equivalent of Dunninger's "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary; for those who do not, none will suffice."
Nonetheless, it's still true.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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I'd have thought that it would be a fairly non-controversial position that of all people who should be expected to follow the law, at the top of the list should be those who are given guns, sworn, and paid at taxpayer expense to enforce it.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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[quote]On 2006-07-07 09:57, Marvello wrote:
Quote:


Skip- As you said - refusing ro a search, etc. will raise suspicion in the mind of a cop. If you are "innocent as the driven snow" why would you want to subject yourself to an even bigger inconvenience of having them go through the trouble of finding a legal recourse? Principle? That seems to me to be a big waste of not only your time, but also the police officer who could be out stopping someone who is guilty. When I get stopped by a police officer, for whatever reason, I prefer the interaction to be as short as possible. I try to avoid saying or doing anything to make that interaction longer than necessary.

When I wrote about the possibilty of them NOT searching your car if you freely say that you allow them to do so I was not speaking on specualtion - it happened to me. About 10 years ago a friend and I were traveling around the country in my '77 chevy van. At Stone Mountain, Georgia, we were pulled over - my friend was driving, and he always looks stoned - kind of like Jim Breuer - so the cops assumed we had been smoking pot - which we hadn't. They separated us and questioned each of us alone and then tried to imply to me that my friend had said that we had been smoking pot - which I knew to be a lie. They asked if they could search my van, and I told them they could. They said "If you have something you had better tell us, because if we search the van and find something, then you are in bigger trouble." I had no worries about the search, and they could tell that was the case. They didn't search the van, and they let us go. I am not implying that this will happen every time - just relating what happened to me once. Sure, I could have refused , knowing I was innocent, etc., but if I had done so that would have meant a much longer interaction than I wanted. The next day we were stopped by police because we pulled in to a gas station - looked at the pumps and saw the price was too high, and left. The owners of the station called the cops on us because they felt we were casing the station for a robbery. We decided not to spend more time than was necessary in Georgia.




Although that worked out well for you in terms of convenience, the inverse situation is much more likely, at least with respect to police officers who are going to make some pretext of following the law. In the absence of consent, the police are in the arena of what is known as a "Terry stop," and their ability to detain you is curtailed. They can basically ask you a few questions while they run your license and plates. After that, they have to send you on your way. Your consent acts, essentially, as a waiver of the probable cause requirement, and gives rise to the possibility of a much longer, and now legal (only because of your consent) search.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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And FWIW, I think law enforcement officers like Skip, with a knowledge of and respect for the legal constraints of his authority, are worth more than their weight in gold.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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On 2006-07-07 20:18, Steve V wrote:
Thinking of it I never wanted to be a cop....hmmmm. Bad cold reading.




Dangit. Mentalism IS harder than magic. ok, think of a card then...
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Skip Way
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On 2006-07-07 19:58, LobowolfXXX wrote:
And FWIW, I think law enforcement officers like Skip, with a knowledge of and respect for the legal constraints of his authority, are worth more than their weight in gold.


High praise...thanks Lobo and James. I just happen to believe that our Constitution and Bill of Rights rock.
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Jonathan Townsend
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On 2006-07-06 02:47, AJOJRF wrote:... Any advice?


Figure out why you are out there...

Just a suggestion... smile when they stop you. After a few meetings they will recognize you.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
James F
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I think that is pretty much my best bet. When driving, I don't get pulled over TOO often, its my friend that gets pulled over the most. (I am usually with him though) Its been puzzling me...They must recognize the car and the faces...So why do they continue to pull us over? I think maybe because we look as though we have drugs or whatever on us so they figure they will catch us eventually. I don't know. I'm going to try and be more personable to the officers and maybe even do as Skip suggested. I think this may end up helping greatly in the future.

James
RandyStewart
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James,

You remained fixated on the cop issue whereas I'm all over the driving at 3am thing - especially on a weekend. If you are doing nothing illegal, you and the cop will merely end up having a little chat next time he pulls you over. I wish my dear friend could of been dealt that hand when he was killed by a drunk driver in a similar setting. He didn't even drink.

See how you and I are looking at the same "issue" but seeing different things?

Well at least you live in an area where you don't hesitate to head out at the wee hours of the morning. And no, I'm not afraid of the night as I love the night life as well but I did warn you about my being an old fart about this topic.

The television Dr. Phil has a mega apartment about five minutes from here, George Michael has a pad about 10 min. from here, and the hustler who hangs out by the corner (he's had that spot for a couple of years) no one knows where he lives, but we all avoid the uncertainty of dealing with creatures of the night - particularly those who are wide awake and busy bodies at 3am (OUTSIDE OF THEIR HOMES). Sound like a safe area? You better think again! Anyone living in this apparently decent area avoids driving or leaving comfort of "home" at these hours. Check out our crime rate and car jacking reports most of which occur at such hours. It gets crazy! We have amazingly nutty people come out at these hours. It's just how it works around here.

And no, the police rarely get there in time for your moment of need - it's that busy and bad at times.

I've done a little travelling around the world, visited and lived in good and bad places and know what it's like to be in areas where one could care less about exercising a Constitutional right to drive at 3am as one's safety is far more important.

Obviously our basis for comparison will differ as will our actions. For the cops who seem to have a line on you, will you be delivering a card and a little box of cookies next Christmas? Smile



Don't forget what Jonathan suggested in your request for advice:


Jonathan Townsend wrote:
"Figure out why you are out there...Just a suggestion... smile when they stop you. After a few meetings they will recognize you.
LobowolfXXX
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Check out our crime rate and car jacking reports most of which occur at such hours. It gets crazy! We have amazingly nutty people come out at these hours. It's just how it works around here.




Although it's something of a self-fulfilling prophecy to say that you should stay in at night because more crimes are committed; it's in large part due to the fact that fewer people are out on the street that the crime rate is higher.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
RandyStewart
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I'll tend to side with you there Lobowolf but it's not as things are today. But don't get me started on my inclination to believe that if we all carried a gun we might have just a little more respect for one another.

Oooops! did I just drop that 400lb. can of worms? Hehehehe Smile
James F
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Or we might be a little more scared of each other! haha!

James
RandyStewart
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Yeah sort of the same difference. Smile
Steve V
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Randy is a freakin' genius by the way. My brother holds the record for arrest....over 50, and he will never be allowed to drive in any state.
Steve V
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