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scorch
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Quote:
On 2006-07-12 12:55, djrdjr wrote:
I believe I would have taken to it much more positively had the emphasis (both here and on the product's site) been on the special routines instead of the prop itself. The fact that the video just showed a common CTB routine put undue emphasis on the prop, instead of the routines, which I assume are really the product's selling point.

I think we could have skipped all of this had the product been marketed as a pamphlet of routines (which is what it seems to be) instead of a magic box.


Good point.

I'm sure also that it would have had a better reaction had he been more careful with the claims about the notion that "the card can be removed by the spectator." As anybody who performs close up knows, there is a world of difference between the effect as shown on the demo ending with the signed card being taken out of the box by the spectator (an effect that this product implicitly advertises yet clearly DOES NOT produce), and a completely different handling wherein a card that is not signed is removed from the box. In my opinion Mr. Kamm should not advertise the former on his website and on ebay, but in truth only offer the latter.

Making a demo of the standard effect, and then simply stating that the card can be removed by the spectator, when in fact the card cannot be removed by the spectator in the advertised context, is clearly misleading. Magicmania and others were acting to the world as if all of us were just plain stupid and ignorant for trying to clarify this important distinction, and only now are sheepishly admitting the limitation of the handling referred to. We were all told quite condescendingly to just stop doubting and send in the twenty bucks. OK, magicman, the truth wasn't so bad, was it? That's all we wanted to know. Again, nobody is/was asking for exposure here, just for an honest clarification of what is and is not being offered, and whether it fulfills its promises. And at least in this one important (to many of us) aspect, it apparently does not.

I'm sure there is much to value in Mr. Kamm's pamphlet; a little more frank and candid information up front would have gone a long way to keeping the attention on its attributes rather than on the misleading claims.
kammagic
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Scorch,
Wether or not the advertising is misleading can be argued either way. If I buy a trick that says "pull coins out of thin air" have I been mislead? If I buy some aftershave because the guy in the comercial was surrounded by hot women. Is that misleading. Magic itself is misleading. If you are selling a magic item you are selling something that was created to mislead people. Every magic ad I know is misleading. Every Kaps style card to box effect is sold as "signed card is found in box!" In reality no its not! "Hey ! they are misleading me."
To complain about misleading information in a magic ad is rediculous.

If I have a question about a product I have always had good luck with simply contacting the creator. That's how you find out if someone can be trusted or is out to scam you. I was more then honest with people who asked me wether the card removed by the spectator was signed or not. To sit and make assumptions doesn't get you anywhere.
Paul Wingham
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Kammagic: I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think we as magicians often worry to much about what we see happen and forget that the only important thing is what the spectator percieves to have happened.

I do card on ceiling at least 20 times a week and the number of people that later come up to me and ask how the card just appeared on the ceiling (it didn't I threw it up there)but the important thing is the spec blocks out the finer points and just remembers the end result.
kammagic
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Quote:
On 2006-07-23 04:51, Paul Wingham wrote:
Kammagic: I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think we as magicians often worry to much about what we see happen and forget that the only important thing is what the spectator percieves to have happened.

I do card on ceiling at least 20 times a week and the number of people that later come up to me and ask how the card just appeared on the ceiling (it didn't I threw it up there)but the important thing is the spec blocks out the finer points and just remembers the end result.



Yes, in the ToiBox routine when they remove the card themselves they remember it as their signed card. I don't let them keep the unsigned card only the signed one that I removed so that's all they have to remember the effect.

I think what happens is if you experience something in person that is amazing it is very hard to describe it to someone so that they experience the same amazement. So we embelish the story to make it stronger for the people we are telling it to. Usually the truth and embelishment become blurred and we forget actually what really happened.
scorch
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Quote:
On 2006-07-23 04:03, kammagic wrote:
Whether or not the advertising is misleading can be argued either way. If I buy a trick that says "pull coins out of thin air" have I been mislead? If I buy some aftershave because the guy in the commercial was surrounded by hot women. Is that misleading. Magic itself is misleading. If you are selling a magic item you are selling something that was created to mislead people. Every magic ad I know is misleading. Every Kaps style card to box effect is sold as "signed card is found in box!" In reality no its not! "Hey ! they are misleading me."
To complain about misleading information in a magic ad is ridiculous.

It is usually fairly easy to tell the difference between a vaguely described effect (such as you mentioned about pulling coins out of thin air) and a specifically false claim about a specific aspect such as in your ads. Sure the argument can be made both ways. But which side are you going to err on? The side of maintaining honesty and integrity, or selling a few dozen more units?

Quote:
If I have a question about a product I have always had good luck with simply contacting the creator. That's how you find out if someone can be trusted or is out to scam you. I was more then honest with people who asked me wether the card removed by the spectator was signed or not.


Um, actually, you were pretty silent on the matter. Several people in fact did ask very specifically in the earlier thread, and you stonewalled the questions. How were we supposed to know that we couldn't just ask you on the thread (which after all, you started), and that we would need to pm you personally in order to find out the truth? There was quite a controversy, because a lot of people wanted to know if your effect indeed represented a major advance in the effect. The matter wasn't cleared up until this review thread came along, and it wasn't by you. I am not one to assume that I am being scammed, but when I ask a question (along with several others), and no information is forthcoming, it does indeed start to smell more like a snow job.

I mean, come on. If I came out with a pamphlet on impromptu street levitations, and promised in my advertisement that it was angle-proof when the demo showed nothing more than the well-known Balducci, you don't think there would be a lot of questions about such a claim? And then when I failed to respond to any questions about it, don't you think it would rub some people the wrong way?


Quote:
On 2006-07-23 04:51, Paul Wingham wrote:
I do card on ceiling at least 20 times a week and the number of people that later come up to me and ask how the card just appeared on the ceiling (it didn't I threw it up there)but the important thing is the spec blocks out the finer points and just remembers the end result.

True, but then again, just because in the best of all possible scenarios, an audience member will remember it as the card magically appearing without your having thrown it up there, you don't go promising your customers that they don't even throw the cards up at the ceiling. Because that would be a lie, wouldn't it? Mr. Kam's advertisement, the way it was contextualized, goes over the line and promises something that it can't deliver, pure and simple. If you're going to market something to working magicians and not kids coming into a novelty store, you'd better darn well be more careful about such distinctions. Just because "it's magic" doesn't justify false advertisement.
Lukenp
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Scorch, I am not a liar. Get your facts straight.
"Be natural"

-Dai Vernon
vinsmagic
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Toi box all I will say is this the handling is excellent and I love non gimmicked effects , but I can not compare toi box to any other CTB because I have never did CTB .I do card to mouth,to watch and even paperclipped ,but never card to box,.
I have supported Jonathasn and will give his effect the practice it deserves because it is excellent for walk around. I only hope he returns the favor and supports my liquid band .For 6 bucks it is the best band effect of the year in my opinion checkout vinnynmarini.com. also even if you do not to perform band effects remember one hand washes the other...
vinny
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
Jon Allen
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Quote:
On 2006-07-23 04:51, Paul Wingham wrote:
Kammagic: I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think we as magicians often worry to much about what we see happen and forget that the only important thing is what the spectator percieves to have happened.



Hi Paul,

You are right in that what is important is how the audience perceive what you have done. (I have read several reports about Marc Salme's latest show and even journalist describe something totally different to what actualkly happened.) However, it is important in the performance. If you were told you could buy a trick for 15 dollars where a card is signed, genuinely lost on the deck and the card instantly appears on the ceiling, you would probably want to buy it. Imagine how you would feel when you get it and find you have to throw the cards up to the ceiling but the *impression* is that you don't. You may well ask how people forget you throw the cards up. So much of what we do is psychological. However it is up to each individaul performer to inject that psychology themselves. No amount of description will help if you cannot put it into practise.

What happens when someone asks to see the trick where the card simply appears on the ceiling???

Nobody expects the methods to tricks to be given away in the desciption but then neither do people expect to read a description that may or may not be what som epeople in your audience believes happened.
Paragon 3D - the most incredible Card to Clear Box you will ever own. Be fooled here: http://youtu.be/GQxRZ1OGkUo
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kammagic
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Scorch,

It's respectful to PM someone or Email them privately if you have a question about their product that may give away or expose their effect. A forum thread is not the place to discuss that. If we met in a room full of people and I had a question about some effect you do I would take you aside and speak to you privately. I wouldn't broadcast to the whole room. Which is what you would be doing in a forum.

, Jonathan


Quote:
On 2006-07-23 20:12, vinsmagic wrote:
Toi box all I will say is this the handling is excellent and I love non gimmicked effects , but I can not compare toi box to any other CTB because I have never did CTB. I do card to mouth, to watch, and even Paperclipped, but never card to box,.
I have supported Jonathan and will give his effect the practice it deserves because it is excellent for walk around. I only hope he returns the favor and supports my liquid band .For 6 bucks it is the best band effect of the year in my opinion checkout vinnynmarini.com. also even if you do not to perform band effects remember one hand washes the other...
vinny

Thanks Vinny I always wanted to learn that! Your download service was quick and easy. We may need to talk. I have been wanting to set up some downloads myself.

, Jonathan
Review King
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I think the brilliant Tony Miller's "Anything Wallet" solves all these problems:
http://www.rfaproductions.com/products/anythingwallet.htm

I've been using this for sometime and it has never failed me: They NEVER ask to see the wallet!

Chris
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
Magicsquared
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Quote:
On 2006-07-23 22:36, kammagic wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-07-23 20:12, vinsmagic wrote:
Toi box all I will say is this the handling is excellent and I love non gimmicked effects , but I can not compare toi box to any other CTB because I have never did CTB .I do card to mouth,to watch and even paperclipped ,but never card to box,.
I have supported Jonathasn and will give his effect the practice it deserves because it is excellent for walk around. I only hope he returns the favor and supports my liquid band .For 6 bucks it is the best band effect of the year in my opinion checkout vinnynmarini.com. also even if you do not to perform band effects remember one hand washes the other...
vinny


Thanks Vinny I aways wanted to learn that! Your download service was quick and easy. We may need to talk. I have been wanting to set up some downloads myself.

, Jonathan


I'm sure both your products are fine, but this idea that people pushing their stuff on the Café should automatically support one-another (and let's face it, the phrase "one hand washes the other" isn't asking for an unbiased review) is what a lot of people hate about the Café.
vinsmagic
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First of all I know Jonathans card work and I bought his product even though I am not familar with ctb...I support him period......
If his effect was bad or I did not like it I certainly would make this known. I am sure jonathan would want an honest opinion from me ...jonathan is a friend and I would expect the same support from him I was not speaking to anyone else just johathan...
vinny
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http://www.vinnymarini.com
Dr. Zordas
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Quote:
On 2006-07-23 23:44, MagicChris wrote:
I think the brilliant Tony Miller's "Anything Wallet" solves all these problems:
http://www.rfaproductions.com/products/anythingwallet.htm

I've been using this for sometime and it has never failed me: They NEVER ask to see the wallet!

Chris


...That's good to know - I just won a brand new one for £6 on eBay last night!


Dr. Zordas
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Quote:
On 2006-07-24 06:07, Dr. Zordas wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-07-23 23:44, MagicChris wrote:
I think the brilliant Tony Miller's "Anything Wallet" solves all these problems:
http://www.rfaproductions.com/products/anythingwallet.htm

I've been using this for sometime and it has never failed me: They NEVER ask to see the wallet!

Chris


...That's good to know - I just won a brand new one for £6 on eBay last night!


Dr. Zordas


Dr. Zordas, I hope you like it. There's a discussion board called mentalist sanctum and it has an area dedicated to this effect ( lotsa great mentalist applications).

Chris
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
Dr. Zordas
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...Thanks Chris! I'll check it out!


Dr. Zordas
kammagic
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Sounds like a cool product. But I thought this is a thread for ToiBox reviews and comments.

Thank you, Jonathan
Dr. Zordas
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Quote:
On 2006-07-24 14:21, kammagic wrote:
Sounds like a cool product. But I thought this is a thread for ToiBox reviews and comments.

Thank you, Jonathan



Yes, you're quite right. Which is the best - ToiBox or Destination Box? Looking forward to reading another 7 pages...


Dr. Zordas
kammagic
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Quote:
On 2006-07-24 15:11, Dr. Zordas wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-07-24 14:21, kammagic wrote:
Sounds like a cool product. But I thought this is a thread for ToiBox reviews and comments.

Thank you, Jonathan



Which is the best - ToiBox or Destination Box? Looking forward to reading another 7 pages...


Dr. Zordas


Please don't provoke them. Smile
djrdjr
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Quote:
On 2006-07-23 04:03, kammagic wrote:
To complain about misleading information in a magic ad is rediculous.

Well, I'm sorry, but that is just insulting.
kammagic
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Quote:
On 2006-07-24 19:42, djrdjr wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-07-23 04:03, kammagic wrote:
To complain about misleading information in a magic ad is rediculous.

Well, I'm sorry, but that is just insulting.


Dale,

It wasn't meant to be. But since I arrived here I know how you feel.

, Jonathan
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