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Dr Spektor
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I think we are saying the same thing - which is all things that exist exist but from a human's point of view - if it cannot be understood by their knowledge, skills and attitudes at their level of experience - it becomes classified into the world of super/para/magic - e.g. you might know how you did the coin bend - so its science and the spec will think its magic (hopefully!) (or paranormal science whatever) - also - like the computers we are typing on - we know its all science but when you try to think about how it actually works and all the details and development - wow - that is mind boggling - this whole discussion reminds me of quantum physics and the observer making things real by observing.... but is there an objective reality beyond an observer - because any observer (except if you want to posit the Supreme Being type) is subjective in their observations! Smile

This all leads back to existentialism....! There are more things in heaven and earth etc....

It all depends on who is doing the classifying and who agrees with them or not...

Did I mention I am a Phillip K. Dick fan!?!
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
Jaz
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Just some word fun. Smile

Sometimes certain English words and terms that are used seem to be made by chowderheads.
To those Johnny come latelys who try learning the lingo are often bamboozled with words like story, duck, wind, bow which have more than one meaning.
I try and put my best foot forward, toe the line and look at the words to see if the meanings are dead ringers or not. This don't always happen in one fell swoop but I try.
I'm not trying to be a wiseacre and really have no idea why the words "supernatural" and "paranormal" have become grassroots words.

I know I sound as mad as a hatter but that happens when I tie one on or an not up to snuff.

Have a hunkydory day. Smile
Scott Xavier
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Wow, I realized what you meant, just was trying to show other view points as too many here seem to not see the grander and lesser picture, although you seem to have summed it up nicely in your last post.
Dannydoyle
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Jim I am just not going to get drawn into a debate in which both sides of it are equally unqualified to even have the conversation.

Seems stupid. Like when a bunch of kids after their first day of football practice want to discuss complicated devensive sets. Makes them really look silly.

So like I said you guys would look a whole lot less silly if you had actualy provable theories to mount instead of just spewing whatever comes into your head.

As mentalists yea probably a great bunch, as philisophers, well seriously lacking.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dr Spektor
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It would seem everyone is qualified to give their opinion - you just have to consider the context it is given, the background of the person, track-record, ability to explain the opinion clearly etc.... and then the person listening goes through trying to understand it and conenct to it from their own frame of reference. This particular area is known in adult learning theory as Constructivism - where it is an axiom everyone comes to the table with their own sense of what reality is and so educators need to keep that in mind to connect with learners. But that is in the area of subjectivism and human interactions - it doesn't prove one way or other the true nature of reality - and no one is qualified to do that except some sort of Supreme Being - which none of us would believe anyway as we are all frail meatlings.... unless the Supreme Being type decided to actively MAKE you believe Smile.....

To be a good mentalist, I believe you do need to be a bit of a philospher and a theoretician to be able to construct effects that take into account subjectivity, personal impact on spectators, and ground it in some sort of context that links it to the "accepted" shared reality.

Hail VALIS!
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
Jim-Callahan
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Danny, why would they be lacking?

I do understand that you have a firm grasp of your own limitations but why not stretch yourself a bit?

Chi, I find it distressing that you do not grasp why this sort of thing is important.

I think when I create a peice of art it should have a subtext or a story based in reality or a intersesting concept to think about.

Even the poster for my current show has a very personal meaning that is explained during the show. Here is a link to it. http://jimclass.com/Poster.htm

So I guess it depends if one is creating reality based art or just clever mind games void of any long term meaning for the audeance.

I personaly like that so few work on decent presentations or strive to expand their performance boundries. It allows me to avoid comparisons with other performers.

Jim

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Harry H
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Quote:
On 2006-07-17 22:25, Jim-Callahan wrote:
Jimtron,

If you percive it it becomes of this reality.

That is why I think the JREF deal is a load.
(I hope you may get it now why so many have sided with Jack in the opinion that the challange is a scam. In his opinion.)

Scott, has made the point pretty well in the post above.
As did a totaly digital fellow named Jack that you engaged in debate more than once.

So was he (Jack) supernatural since he lept from my skull and into your reality?
Nope Jack, was and is of this reality just as you and I are.

Just as Ghosts and ice cream as Scott, Slim, and Tony point out.

Have a good night guys.

Jim

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The Randi challenge isn't based on a definition as far as I understand it.It's based on demonstration.
Doesn't matter if you claim you can become invisible at will but term this power "jellywobble" ,you demonstrate it to an agreed result and win.
You're sore that Randi wouldn't play your game,yet still mention him on a weekly basis!!
Tony Iacoviello
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Jim & Harry:


In all fairness, my problem might be a natural result of my cooking. ;(


Do you think Jimmy R. might consider my cooking for the prize? It has been know to cause some paranormal activity thoughout the house. My chili alone was the root cause of quite a few noises that caused the walls to shake, and I won't get into those hellish odors.

I am pretty sure I can replicate these results anytime Jimmy Wants.

Tony
Jim-Callahan
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No Randi is a promotional tool and he is playing my game.
He is doing as he needs to and I do as I need to.
The old boy has made two mistakes thus far and I do look for him to make a few more.

In the end does it really make a difference?

He writes of people he finds to be duplicitous in their actions does he not?
Personaly can't see why it should be his exclusive domain.

I know he is a great leader to some of you but he is in my opinion little better than Sylvia Brown.
So that is my beleife be it good or bad.

You do make a good point Harry but you also miss the jist of the idea.
If it happens on a regular basis it is not supernatural is it?
(Even once really)

Why do you think it must be done more than once to get the cash?
C'mon it is a swindle based upon the ideas expressed in this thread.

Tony if that is the case I feel sorry for your family.

Jim

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chichi711
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Jim
What mistakes has Randi made thus far?
chichi711
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Oh and for the record I know you a lot better than I know Randi (never said one thing to the guy) so I hope you can take his money.
Tony Iacoviello
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Jim:

Why do you think they call it the SOUPornatutural?

Don't feel too bad, my daughter moved out and my son has takeout a lot.

Tony
Dr Spektor
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Slight deviation from thread: some cool films that deal with area I think we are talking about:

Quatermass and the Pit AKA 5 Million years to Earth

and

The Legend of Hell House (although the book is wayyyy better - the movie is still a classic....)

As for Jim/Jack - I am never 100% sure of what he is saying (such is the world of ambiguity) but I think it relates to another film by the same guy who wrote QandtheP - Nigel Kneale - (who is so cool maybe he is supernaturally related to Bob Neale on a phonetic basis Smile)..... "The Stone Tapes".....

Basically all the above have a blending of science and supernatural - trying to explain each other - the cool thing about the stone tapes is the protagonist trying to activate a supernatural phenomena like a tape deck / VCR / DVD player - the premise being that some organic stone has absorbed "memories"/"visual flashbacks" and displays them at various times that people labelled it "Ghostly phenomena" - he gets tht great idea of this being a new media source - but things go horribly awry - and that things that one doesn't fully understand often get out of control resulting in great disaster.... cool film... almost all Nigel Kneale's stuff is cool cool cool..... often an inspiration for many of my works in various fields....

What am I babbling about? I think Jim may be saying that by the basis that the supernatural doesn't follow "natural" (or our concept of how things work) rules - it is often hard to replicate and bring about at any time - of course, another perspective from skeptics would be that is just a total excuse for not being able to do it as the person must be a charlatan.... and if one starts being able to produce supernatutal phenomena in an orderly way with certian methods it will become science after a while Smile.....

In any case, no matter where you are on this debate - go see those films!!!! (Oh, I'd rank up there Night of the Demon as another cool film - just pretend not to see the stupid Demon monster when it appears so you can get the true intent of the film... what is psychological and what is supernatural?)... oh yeah - last one "The Innocents" - the good version - script by Truman Capote no less... another - psychol vs supernatural....

Ok - I'll stop - I got a gazillion films and TV shows I can babble about that dramatically give their innovative interpretations to this age-old and unending debate (and by the way, just 'cuz its age-old and undending doesn't mean it shouldn't go on - it promotes lateral thinking)....

(Watch out for Timothy Archer eating Mushrooms!)
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
Dannydoyle
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Jim you have animosity for Randi and it is obvious why. Not a problem.

BUT then you keep using his name, HOPING agains hope he will somehow mention you so that the result can be manipulated by you for your own gain.

You love it when people look at you which is fine, your an entertainer. Randi chooses not to get into little petty squabbles with you. Funny though he spent a CAREER at getting in them with people, why not you? I get it, this eats at you so badly! You want the recognition Geller gets every time Randi is mentioned.

So you keep throwing stones hoping that at least one will get close enough to get his attention. Well to date it appears as if none has. Maybe you need to sing a new song, or try a new band to be heard.

NOTHING you have said has worked and Randi isn't getting any younger! Your chance at immortality is slipping away and ther is nothing you can do about it. Tough break actually.

They say when you throw a stone into a pack of dogs the only one which yelps is the one which got hit. NOBODY seems to be yelping from Randi's camp. Guess that means your stones miss every week.

Gotta give you credit for trying though. Maybe the fake philisophy postings are more your speed.

Don't get me wrong Jim, I like you, but your a one trick pony and it is tiresome.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jim-Callahan
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Danny, what is real philisophy?

Really not playing a game here and you have made mention of it several times.

As for Randi he is as I stated a promotional tool and he has noticed and it makes little difference if he ever responds again.

You see he has served his purpouse for me and continues to do so.

But I really would like to know why an entertainer should not have a background in the thinking he uses to construck presentations.

Also why it is not real Philosophy if it is based upon simple logic?

As I wrote you have made these types of comments before and I find it amazing that you seem to promote the position of lets keep it dumbed down fellas do not think or discuss anything of depth.

Why does it make you so uncomfortable?


Jim

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chichi711
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Come on Danny what do you really think?

I stay out of the Jim and Jack debates. That was my new years resolution. Smile
Dr Spektor
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Actually - this thread seemed to have great potential and I'm sure Scott didn't start it to have it devolve into heat death from the usual metadebate between certain Café forces Smile....

Can we go back to the intent of the thread? Maybe reframe the slightly of the primary thread discussion topic to be "how skeptics can be used by psychics and psychics by skeptics for primary and seconday gain via the blurriness of the paranormal and supernatural world" and "rooting effects in a solid foundation of science and supernature" which seem to be - in my limited perceptions - what certain people here are talking about without making personal attacks? What amazes me is that this dynamic continues - that to me borders on the supernatural.....

ChiChi has broken the Curse - psychological magick no doubt
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
Graymatter_Fireworks
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Just a quick note here: Personally, even in contrast to previous posts in this thread, I have found this discussion curious and a bit refreshing. All those- "What is the best_______?" topics get rather tiresome and vexing.

Always fun to see some real thinking going on.

-Brandon Bell
"The social world in which we live, determines our experience of what is real." - John Gager
Harry H
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I'd personally like the member of this forum who believes they have a genuine ability that no-one else has,that would be best described as genuine paranormal(psychic,esp etc.)to step forward.

No doubletalk from Jim/jack,no musing on the definition or "what could be percieved as" mumblings.

I can see the tumbleweeds approaching already Smile
Dannydoyle
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Ok Jim it is the fact that people know nothing about what they are posting about philisophy and putting it out as if it is some undiscovered truth.

Using flowery termenology and such does in no way qualify anyone to actualy aspouse the philisophy they want too. It is kind of silly to even watch. People who "think they know" as opposed to really know or even really are smart enough to realise they DON"T KNOW.

But indeed lets not let this degrade to this level. You guys just keep aspousing your "pseudo philisophy" and be happy as can be. Bliss and all.

Jim I agree that a performer should have some roots in what it is he is "duplicating" (lets not have the IS THIS REAL DEBATE as it is irrelivant for our purposes). Yes indeed it is helpfull. BUT knowing when you don't know, well that is just as important, and maybe just maybe a little more.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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