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Scott Xavier
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BRAVO HARRY H, this is what Jim/Jack is talking about. NO ONE HAS PARANORMAL GIFTS! You can't because every gift that exists is natural and of nature so it can't be unnormal or outside of nature.

EXAMPLE: For the power of spoon bending to be supernatural, the power would have to come from a magic energy flow outisde of nature or a supreme deity. But by saying these energy flows exist, states that they are of nature.

Simple concept. If it can be done, it is natural.................

Like Jim or not, he has a point. And why get all mad because of his shameless self promotion? Its called show business!

Hey danny, can we stop from trying to bait people, its showing a childishness.
jimtron
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If ghosts exist, then they would be of the universe or of the world, so then they would be a natural phenomena, maybe they are rare like those bigfeet and lochness monsters, but as Doc Shiels pointed out they do exist and are natural. So they exist. That means their natural. So how can they ever be outside of natural or unnatural?


Doc Sheils pointed out what exists--ghosts, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness Monster? Where is the evidence that any of these exist?

Ghosts are supernatural because they can't be proven or tested by science, or at least haven't yet been proven by science.

If we're going to go down the Jim Callahan vs. Randi avenue, could someone start a new thread please, instead of straying from the OP?

Posted: Jul 18, 2006 6:10pm
Quote:

NO ONE HAS PARANORMAL GIFTS! You can't because every gift that exists is natural and of nature so it can't be unnormal or outside of nature.

EXAMPLE: For the power of spoon bending to be supernatural, the power would have to come from a magic energy flow outisde of nature or a supreme deity. But by saying these energy flows exist, states that they are of nature.



"...by saying these energy flows exist, states that they are of nature" So if I say that flying pink elephants exist in the center of Earth, that is natural? Because I said they exist? Do you think everything that can be imagined is nature/natural?

You said earlier that Zeuss doesn't control lightning and thunder, because science proved otherwise. Isn't that also the case with paranormal spoon bending?

Scott, do you believe that anyone can bend spoons by magical powers; in other words, not the way mentalists bend spoons but by real PK power, or some other magical force? If someone can bend spoons with their mind, that would be pretty easy to prove, right? Put a spoon on a table (supplied by an independent party, not the bender) and bend it without covering it or touching it.
Corona Smith
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Hey Jimtron, you've either been on holiday or showed remarkable restraint over this topic Smile

I think if you read Scott's post again you will see he uses 'natural' means to bend spoons.

Whenever I try and bend spoons they simply vanish, maybe I'm over doing it.

All the best, Corona.
jimtron
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I think if you read Scott's post again you will see he uses 'natural' means to bend spoons.

As do all mentalists, as far as I know.
Scott Xavier
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"or at least haven't yet been proven by science. "
--YOU ARE PROVING THE POINT FOR US!

"So if I say that flying pink elephants exist in the center of Earth, that is natural? Because I said they exist? Do you think everything that can be imagined is nature/natural? "
--Not because you said so, but rather if science proved it. What I am saying is if it exists it is natural. Not if you think it.

Only if ghosts exist and can be proven to, are they natural.
jimtron
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Quote:
Only if ghosts exist and can be proven to, are they natural.


Ghosts have not been proven by science to exist. Therefore, ghosts are supernatural, right? And Zeuss and all other gods are supernatural, right?
chichi711
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On 2006-07-18 18:16, Corona Smith wrote:

Whenever I try and bend spoons they simply vanish, maybe I'm over doing it.

All the best, Corona.


I thought I was the only one that can do that.

Posted: Jul 18, 2006 6:29pm
Each person defines these words the way they think best. What is the point of fighting about it? The way I see it not one of you know what the crap you are talking about and this is starting to sound a bit childish. You say.......oh never mind.

Next debate.

Football VS Football. Who is right USA or the Rest of the World?
Jaz
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Is SUPERnormal and PARAnatural the same as .... never mind.
jimtron
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On 2006-07-18 18:29, chichi711 wrote:
Each person defines these words the way they think best. What is the point of fighting about it? The way I see it not one of you know what the crap you are talking about and this is starting to sound a bit childish. You say.......oh never mind.

Next debate.

Football VS Football. Who is right USA or the Rest of the World?


I have no interest in fighting for the sake of fighting. However, I am interested in a calm, intelligent exchange of ideas. Also, this isn't just a question of semantics; I don't think we're only discussing words and definitions; there's a lot more to it than that.
Dr Spektor
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Say, above I put forward some suggestions regarding some frameworks - can someone shoot mine down too now? Sometimes it feels as if posting stuff around here to try to engage in a healthy discussion seems to be an empty hope... or maybe I'm a ghost (a natural one of course)....

Supernatural is unexplained phenomena from someone or some peoples subjective views... and whatever it "really" is (the "truth" of the phenomena) is something natural... since it "exists" in "objective reality" - except no one has the ability to see that reality since we are all subject to our perceptional biases... hence how supernatural and paranormal phenomena developed... kapeesh?

Phenomenology does have its limits y'know. The psychiatry field has the ol DSM IV TR book based on that concept to describe psychiatric conditions - but in the real world, most people's conditions never fit very well into categories - and there is no attempt in DSM IV to put forward the eitology of the conditions - hence why I am used to the world of ambiguity and the creation of the "good enough for now" reality Smile - because in the end, one still needs to do some actions based on your best concept of reality - otherwise we'd all be stuck sitting and thinking about what is real or not (and you'd end up seeing me or one of my colleagues!)
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
Corona Smith
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Quote:
On 2006-07-18 18:41, Dr Spektor wrote:
Say, above I put forward some suggestions regarding some frameworks - can someone shoot mine down too now? Sometimes it feels as if posting stuff around here to try to engage in a healthy discussion seems to be an empty hope... or maybe I'm a ghost (a natural one of course)....



Did anybody else feel that? The Café went a bit cold and I was sure I could here a disembodied voice as if it emanated from some otherworldly realm, yiiikes!

Scooby Doo
jimtron
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Supernatural is unexplained phenomena from someone or some peoples subjective views... and whatever it "really" is (the "truth" of the phenomena) is something natural... since it "exists" in "objective reality" - except no one has the ability to see that reality since we are all subject to our perceptional biases... hence how supernatural and paranormal phenomena developed... kapeesh?


One of the reasons that science is in my opinion the best method we have so far of understanding the natural world, is that it acknowledges that we all are subject to perceptional bias, and it strives to overcome that; hence double-blind studies (and independent replication, peer review, etc). There are ways to observe the world objectively. If I'm color blind, a rose looks gray. However, a rose can be objectively measured to be red (or yellow as the case may be). So there is an objective reality of that rose, regardless of my distorted view of it.

Dr, do you think god or gods are natural or supernatural--or something else?

Posted: Jul 18, 2006 6:58pm
Quote:

The psychiatry field has the ol DSM IV TR book based on that concept to describe psychiatric conditions - but in the real world, most people's conditions never fit very well into categories - and there is no attempt in DSM IV to put forward the eitology of the conditions...

Are you referring to the book titled, "DSM-IV-TR Mental Disorders: Diagnosis, Etiology and Treatment"?
Dr Spektor
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I'd say the concept of "gods" is a perception of a phenomena - what they really are might be explained by science - at least some aspects of them... etc....

As for RCT science etc. it is so full of biases from various sources that many academic know about 20% of things published in the top flight journals of science are somewhat OK and the rest total crap for the purpose of academics getting publications for career advancement. You can take a paper of science and look at the methodology and rip it to shreds easily enough... and find tons of limitations. Pure science and being unbiased is a concept like the supernatural IMHO - there is no such thing - and being aware of one's biases means you are aware of what biases you aware you have - it doesn't mean you are aware of the ones you don't know about until some event or feedback situation occurs to bring it to your conscious attention - hence why the act of continual self-awareness of one's own thinking processes is a valuable one for learning how to deal with reality!

Back to measuring red and yellow - you have to go to degrees of certainty - since we are talking about science - might as well go quantum - i.e. there will be variations one the exact measurments due to temperature effects on the devices, the objects, the environment the things are in, the light factors, the # of gamma rays bouncing about, how good a measuring device it is, to what power it can measure, the angle the flower might be at, etc etc.... that you will get a "good enough for the here and now" measurement... and in most studies, even RCT, there is the whole stats thing with confidences and degrees of probability ... y'know the P and alpha variables... because it always exists...

By the way, Jim, I do side with science to guide my actions since in my personal experience seems to work much better than other methods Smile - however, science itself says it has limits and thus cannot be depended on to be right all the time - but as it improves and grows it will help define what people call the supernatural into natural phenomena as closely as it can - which it can never totally do.... because of the nature of the universe and the way we exist in "reality"...

(I'm actually trying to make sense Smile).....

So, the gods are to some powerful beings, to others volcanoes... sciene will demonstrate the power of the volcano as geothermic stuff - but someone might still say "yeah that is how god manifests" yadada... and use that belief to somehow lift a truck - and then science will show that this person actually had an adrenilin rush based on his brain functions and released beta endorphins to kill the pain as he did that heroic deed - and the person will say - "yeah - that is how the god empowered me"...

All is natural in our reality - supernatural comes from people looking at it and not being able to explain it... or wanting some sort of special meaning that science cannot provide because by its nature it must reduce and quanitify to try to describe things - and thus it always leaves something out and is reductionistic to the actual experience of anything that is experimented on....

So, I hope that makes it clearer... science is great but to follow it as it as is and not question it means you are not being scientific Smile... and to follow anything blindly as opposed to saying "this seems to be the best bet - for now - until more info comes along to help develop it further" is similar to fundamental belief in a god, perhaps...

I'm going to go eat now. Reality of my hunger calls.
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
Tony Iacoviello
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Jimtron:

Back in the 1950s the Chinese told stories of black and white beasts that lived in the jungle eating nothing but bamboo. These stories were dismissed as children's tales. Today we call these beasts Panda.

Becareful what you dismiss as myth or story. it might just come into your yard and eat your bushes.


Doc:

Be careful, we don't want to get this thread deleted.

Tony
Corona Smith
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I hear you Doc,

even if you are a spook.

The sky is not even really blue, for goodness sake.

Corona.
Philemon Vanderbeck
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Yes, it's more of an 'azure'.
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician
"I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five."
Corona Smith
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And it smells of vanilla.
Dr Spektor
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Corona - good hat tip to a nice artificial reality film Smile

(Hey Tony - PM me - what did I say that might get this thread deleted?!??!.... I'm just saying science is limited and no knocks towards anyone's beliefs or religions - in fact, I'm saying everyone is entitled to believe what they want so long as it doesn't hurt anybody else - as they might be right! Everyone! (Yay Quantum Spirituality!)....
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
Tony Iacoviello
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Given past history, I'm just a little worried about where it will go from there.

Tony
chichi711
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Quote:
On 2006-07-18 19:20, Tony Iacoviello wrote:
Jimtron:

Back in the 1950s the Chinese told stories of black and white beasts that lived in the jungle eating nothing but bamboo. These stories were dismissed as children's tales. Today we call these beasts Panda.

Becareful what you dismiss as myth or story. it might just come into your yard and eat your bushes.


Doc:

Be careful, we don't want to get this thread deleted.

Tony


Probably the best thing anyone has said in this thread.
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