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jimtron
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By the way, Jim, I do side with science to guide my actions since in my personal experience seems to work much better than other methods - however, science itself says it has limits and thus cannot be depended on to be right all the time - but as it improves and grows it will help define what people call the supernatural into natural phenomena as closely as it can - which it can never totally do.... because of the nature of the universe and the way we exist in "reality"...

(I'm actually trying to make sense ).....


I'm glad that you see the value of science. And I am quite aware that science has limits, and I agree that scientists would be the first to admit this (anyone that says science is never wrong, or that science can measure everything, is ignorant in my opinion.)

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So, I hope that makes it clearer... science is great but to follow it as it as is and not question it means you are not being scientific ... and to follow anything blindly as opposed to saying "this seems to be the best bet - for now - until more info comes along to help develop it further" is similar to fundamental belief in a god, perhaps...


Of course science should be questioned, that's part of the scientific method. I'm not in favor of following anything blindly. I wouldn't trust anyone that says that science should be followed "blindly" -- has anyone here suggested that?


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Back in the 1950s the Chinese told stories of black and white beasts that lived in the jungle eating nothing but bamboo. These stories were dismissed as children's tales. Today we call these beasts Panda.

Becareful what you dismiss as myth or story. it might just come into your yard and eat your bushes.


I try to be careful and not dismiss things without taking a close look; I don't go around saying "no one has true psychic power" etc. I am interested in finding out what is real and what is not real, wherever possible. I'm not out to disprove anything, just to find out what's really going on.

In your panda example, I wouldn't be satisfied with the idea that they were supernatural beasts only imagined by children, I would want to learn more, and try to discover the reality of the situation, if possible. Pandas do exist, that's an objective reality.

Same with Bigfoot; if Bigfoot exists, that would be really cool, and I'd like to see the evidence. If Bigfoot is a hoax, I'd like to know that. I don't merely want to reinforce my beliefs, or believe what I like to believe, I want to try and get at the truth, when possible.
Dr Spektor
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Hey Jimtron - I think then we are on the same lightwave length then Smile (although I will require Shroedinger's Cat to look at us first to make sure its "real")
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
jimtron
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I think then we are on the same lightwave length then


Swell.


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and there is no attempt in DSM IV to put forward the eitology of the conditions...


Dr S, what led you to this conclusion?

- jimtron
Corona Smith
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It seems to me that the human mind and body is, perhaps nescessarily, a great compressor of 'reality', therefore the instruments of science must be a product of this filtration system, stark living breathing reality is far too much for our puny little minds to comprehend, and is therefore overwhelming and not conjusive to making an omelette. It seems we need to compress and limit our senses to operate effectively. So are we merely measuring consensus reality in our klonky attempts to dissect the world around us? What colour is the sky to a Swallow? What is the relation between our instruments of perception and the message this conveys to our brains? When Descartes said 'I think therefore I am', what did he mean? To me he is suggesting that he is separate from the rest of the Universe, that is why it was an important statement, he set the tone for the modern world, where people feel apart from the Universe, and ultimately from themselves. Was their a time when this distinction between ourselves and everything else was less apparent, even non-existent? It would seem so, pre-enlightenment art is distinguishable from post-enlightenment art (in general) by the point of view of the artist, in the former the protagonist exists at the center of perception as a part of everything, he/she is not separate, and in the latter we see everything is out there, outside of us, over yonder somewhere and we look at it through binoculars. Why has western post-enlightenment science started to invest ancient eastern models of the universe with more credibility? Is the telephone supernatural? Or the internet? If not why not? Neither grow on trees. What time do I have to get up in the morning?

Abres les ojos Smile

Corona
jimtron
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Is the telephone supernatural? Or the internet? If not why not?


Neither are supernatural, because they can be explained and measured by science. Pandas aren't supernatural either.

There is a lot of scientific knowledge about vision in humans and birds, and there are objective ways to measure color. There was another thread about objective reality, but I can't locate it right now. I think we're straying a bit from the OP.

- Jim
Corona Smith
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I think you should read the title of the thread again Jimtron. Now we are straying from the topic...
jimtron
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I was responding to your post about whether the telephone and internet were supernatural. First word of thread title: SUPERNATURAL.

I did think getting into the philosophy of reality might deserve a new thread though...
Dr Spektor
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Oops... Jimtron and I are no longer on the same wavelength - I am sure great comfort to him Smile

Corona is making sense - scary!!! And cool!

The internet and the telephone can be supernatural to a person if they interpet it thus - I'm on a cinema roll here - but did you not see the Gods Must Be Crazy where a Coke Bottle becomes a divine artifact?

The trouble here is some of us are saying the only distinction between natural and supernatural is a human mind interpeting the phenemona... I think you are trying to define it some other way? Perhaps where one can clearly objectively say it is beyond science? Good luck!

There are still people in the wilds of the world who are unfamiliar with certain tech - and then the Arthur C Clarke tech lines come in about magic and advanced tech.... but I think you are saying since you know how a phone works it can't be supernatural...(and do you REALLY understand the working of the phone or the internet? Or are you just accepting things... like electrons, atoms, etc. how do you know it isn't a big coverup? How do you really know? As Corona said - that is how we function - to try to absorb it all - then we get into HP Lovecraft territory and his metaphoric world of knowing too much...)

As for the DSM IV TR -> how did I come to the conclusion? Because that is the basis of the book - it specifically avoids etiology and only focuses on phenomenology - to help classify things but then it has a ton of subgroups because almost all conditions are heterogeneous... check it out man (and do it because if you believe me - how do you really know?!?!))....

Between science and superstition lies.... The Twilight Zone

Oh yeah - Pandas are considered mystical in Japan.... Jimtron... don't you ever marvel at the sheer insane incredibility of the universe?!?!
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
jimtron
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Jimtron... don't you ever marvel at the sheer insane incredibility of the universe?!?!


Constantly.

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The internet and the telephone can be supernatural to a person if they interpet it thus - I'm on a cinema roll here - but did you not see the Gods Must Be Crazy where a Coke Bottle becomes a divine artifact?


The Internet and telephone are not supernatural. Someone might decide to use the telephone as a religious artifact, and they might believe it to be supernatural; and they're welcome to do that. But supernatural means not explainable by science, and telephones are explainable by science.
Dr Spektor
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Yep - but in that case if you think science can really explain in detail the intricate mysteries of the phone and the internet - then it can explain all things - just not very well - and this everything is "natural" - which again ties into the argument everything is natural or supernatural depending how you look at it - and you are pretty clear on stating what lens you say you use...

For your consideration... some dialogue from a television series I happen to hold dear:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adam Grant: Well, Jiggs, don't you think that all of this is just a little bit too much the way it should be?
Jiggs: I don't get you.
Adam Grant: Well, I mean it's so pat. I got tried and sentenced the same day. It doesn't work like that! But you see, that's the way that I saw it in my mind, and so that's the way it is! Or you take this place here, you and Coley and his harmonica or Phillips and his mother. It's like a movie. Real death houses aren't like that, but you see I've never been in a real death house, so that's my impression of it!
Paul Carson: Fifteen more minutes. That's another thing. Why does this always happen around midnight?
Henry Ritchie: Because that's when it happens!
Paul Carson: Yeah, but why?
Henry Ritchie: You tell me why.
Paul Carson: According to Grant, he doesn't know anything about these matters except what he sees in the movies, and in the movies it always happens at midnight.
Henry Ritchie: Because movies are technically accurate.
Paul Carson: Yeah, that's strange too when you come to think of it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
Tony Iacoviello
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Since you brought up Japan...

When I moved there in the 1980s, one of the first books I read was the HISTORY OF JAPAN. This was a classic history book translated into English. Early in the book, it discusses the giant white apes that originally inhabited what we now call Japan. These "apes" were named the Ainu, and the book states that they were hunted down and killed. But some of these escaped to the north. I came to understand a little later on that these Ainu were a caucasian human race. They were the original aboriginal people of Japan, occupying Hokkaido and some of the (now disputed) Russian islands.

I recently watched a show on the History channel where they did genetic analysis and found that they had bread with the Korean and Chinese settlers of Japan.

But the point is, Giant white apes. This is what they appeared to be to the new people on the islands. This would sound as fairytales to most here. Another interesting point, how many would believe that Japan was originally a home to nonasian peoples?

Sometimes the strange things were hear and dismiss can have a ring of truth.

Tony
Scott Xavier
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Wow, Doc and Jim seem to get the reason for the post, its only supernatural until we understand it then it becomes science and nature...

"erefore, ghosts are supernatural, right? And Zeuss and all other gods are supernatural, right?"
--Zues doesn't exist nor do ghosts. Phenomena that cause lightning and ulfs are however. So even though the concept is a part opf nature, they are still just concepts and do not share reality.

Though we can think it up, it doesn't mean it exists. The thought exists, but the phenomena doesn't.
jimtron
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Yep - but in that case if you think science can really explain in detail the intricate mysteries of the phone and the internet - then it can explain all things - just not very well - and this everything is "natural" - which again ties into the argument everything is natural or supernatural depending how you look at it - and you are pretty clear on stating what lens you say you use...


Science can explain the telephone and Internet in great detail. You lost me with, "..then it can explain all things..." Science can't explain all things, and I've never heard a scientist claim that it can.

The telephone and the Interent are not inherently supernatural, in my opinion, though of course someone might consider them that.

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But the point is, Giant white apes. This is what they appeared to be to the new people on the islands. This would sound as fairytales to most here. Another interesting point, how many would believe that Japan was originally a home to nonasian peoples?

Sometimes the strange things were hear and dismiss can have a ring of truth.


I think we agree that strange things should not be quickly dismissed, but instead looked at closely, so that we can understand them better. That's what skepticism is all about, in my experience.

Posted: Jul 18, 2006 10:35pm
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...its only supernatural until we understand it then it becomes science and nature...

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Zues doesn't exist nor do ghosts. Phenomena that cause lightning and ulfs are however. So even though the concept is a part opf nature, they are still just concepts and do not share reality.

Though we can think it up, it doesn't mean it exists. The thought exists, but the phenomena doesn't.

I agree, although I wouldn't say Zeuss and ghosts don't exist, I would say they haven't been proven to exist in the natural world, that we know of. They exist in our imaginations and fiction of course.
Dr Spektor
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But that is the beauty of magic itself isn't it - we dream up things that might not be real - supernatural paranormal effects - and then use mundane methods and psychology of what makes things special to people (the latter some people don't do and that is a mistake (and really this thread is dealing with the theory behind why to have the grounding)) - to create magic... the use of natural means to create the illusion that it isn't natural.... then it becomes a concept and thought giving it some actual existence of some sort Smile - metaphoric / symbolic or however you want to define it....

Posted: Jul 18, 2006 10:41pm
Depending how you want to use science it can explain anything - just better at some things and not as well with other things... it will help create theories that might be just a tinge more "real" sounding then other theories...

Ghosts - seismic disturbances, light optical effects, poor film, infrasound, creaking boards, psychiatric illness etc.

C'mon through anything at me at I'll give you a scientific theory to make it all sound plausible...! Everything is natural! Don't expect me to actually truly stand behind the theory - or even believe it myself - but science is reductionistic as mentioned and can be used to cut off true creative thinking at times....
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jimtron
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On 2006-07-18 22:36, Dr Spektor wrote:
But that is the beauty of magic itself isn't it - we dream up things that might not be real - supernatural paranormal effects - and then use mundane methods and psychology of what makes things special to people (the latter some people don't do and that is a mistake (and really this thread is dealing with the theory behind why to have the grounding)) - to create magic... the use of natural means to create the illusion that it isn't natural.... then it becomes a concept and thought giving it some actual existence of some sort Smile - metaphoric / symbolic or however you want to define it....


Exactly, magicians and authors and artists and filmmakers can use their imaginations to create wonderful strange things that can inspire and entertain. Or as some mentalists put it, "use my five senses to create the illusion of a sixth" (and yes I'm aware that we have more than senses...).

Posted: Jul 18, 2006 10:45pm )
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Depending how you want to use science it can explain anything - just better at some things and not as well with other things...

How would you use science to determine whether a painting was "good art" or "bad art"; or "art" vs. "decoration"?

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but science is reductionistic as mentioned and can be used to cut off true creative thinking at times....

I certainly don't support using science to "cut off creative thinking."

(previous post, I meant to say "I'm aware we have more than FIVE senses")
Dr Spektor
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Science take on good art:

1) Take various types of art - cluster them together via various variables chosen by experts in the field, literature review and grounded theories derived from qualitative research

2) Invite 1000s of people to particpate with possible winning an art work they choose - make sure to include many diverse groups; age, gender, race, culture, country etc. to rate painting according to developed quantitative scale derived from point 1

3) Get a value of current types of art = a holisitc global score for different types of art by chosen important variables... and viola!

4) Repeat all steps above every (X) period of time to keep with changing tastes of world's population

Tada!

If someone would take the money required and fleshed out the protocol - you'd get some way of measuring good/bad art according to the majority's view of "reality".... personally I think it would suck but it is a scientific way to define current good art vs bad art by reducing it to managable variables and equations.


So, to also not cut off creative thinking using science - can science fully explain a telephone? Or in reality, based on axioms and theories that seem to work as far as we know - other assumptions were created to eventually have an understanding of the telephone... what is really going on with it? Why are magicians using cell phones more and more in magic acts?... a mundane item to turn into something supernatural... and how can the effect work unless the specs have some sort of ambiguity regarding the tech.... so that the magician can use that to fry their brains?
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jimtron
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You can conduct a scientific opinion poll, but I don't think science can directly measure whether a particular piece of art is "good art" or "bad art".

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can science fully explain a telephone


Yes, science can fully explain how a telephone works.
Dr Spektor
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Actually, science includes opinion polls - and indepth interviews with subjects to analyze in detail - qualitative analysis - an entire branch of valid science that is often used to help create the quantitative measures - and if 6 billion people say they like painting X and one person doesn't - science would claim that is a signifcant difference and it means "something".... so, as I said, depending how you want to use science - it can be done....

As for the telephone - since we agreed science always has limits - it can explain it to a point until we hit the quarks, man.... and again, I'm arguing that because of this fact that we live in an ambigous universe that we are always trying to reduce in scope for our sanity - the magician's power lies within that space - and thus creates magic supernatural things because the specs know deep down that they are unsure... yep, science can explain a phone - to much much greater detail and comfort than looking for the formula for Good Art.

G'nite - some other people go and take over for a while - I'll come back tomorrow if reality is still around Smile
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Scott Xavier
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Don't you think our views on art are derived from various phenomena such as, Our environment, how we were raised, childhood experiences, and barage of what we have been force fed through the media?
jimtron
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On 2006-07-19 03:59, Scott Xavier wrote:
Don't you think our views on art are derived from various phenomena such as, Our environment, how we were raised, childhood experiences, and barage of what we have been force fed through the media?


Yes, and many other things; in other words, it's entirely subjective. What I consider art, you might consider trash, or vice versa. It's a matter of opinion.
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