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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts |
Nick and Dai, NONE of the non-hypnotic color studies yielded the SAME results as did the hypnotic studies.
Secondly, Not all body changes are caused by peptide releases from the hypothalamus. I suggest that you go back and look at another text on psychoneruophysiology - there are some of the semi-self regulating systems, like thyroid and kidney which can also have a major effect on biody shape, but there's no need to go further... I also note that you did not read the studies that I cited. The ranges of susceptibility were noted as being in the "average" ranges, NOT "high," in several of the studies. So, as I noted before, one out of ten people do NOT do their homework. At least... Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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NFox Inner circle I Do Mentalism Now?! 1101 Posts |
Lee, I was simply offering an alternative viewpoint. I was not trying to imply that all bodily changes can be accounted for through peptides, but I wanted to simplistically demonstrate how something such as a belief/self-suggestion can have an impact on our bodies. I am not foolhardy enough to even think about making the claim that the hypothalamus is the sole cause of any bodily change, weight gain included
Please note I mentioned "In all of the studies I have read" and then further qualified the statement with the parenthetical "Not as many as Lee of course." I know that there are many articles that I have not seen, but in all of the ones that I can remember (Including the article from the New Scientist) the phrase "Highly susceptible has been included. I never made any claim that this was a universal truth, in fact I am currently looking for (And finding) studies that worked with people of an average susceptibility level. So chalk that one up to me not being as well-read on the subject as you are. I acknowledge that Hypnotism is a real mental state (I'm not about to go against things that have been proven and proven over again), the only thing I call into question is whether it is truly universal or a product of the subject's wants, desires, and beliefs subconsciously allowing the hypnotist to place them into the state. In either case it is still the hypnotist who gets them to that point (Let's not even start on Self-Hypnosis, I feel that could be a whole other can of worms). A short anecdote: I have had trouble sleeping for a while now, so I'll often take a sleeping pill (Prescription or otherwise) in order to go to sleep, but on the rare occasion I remember something I have to do I can "fight off" the effects of the sleeping pills. In an attempt to provide yet another alternative way these things could be viewed; Maybe we are all susceptible to hypnosis (Like me and my sleeping pills), but the less suggestible among us possess the desire to, and thus the ability to, fight off the effects (Like when I remember something that is going to keep me up all night). Maybe desire possesses the power to overcome a biochemical process, even hypnosis. I never claimed to be an expert (Quite the contrary) I am simply a human looking for an answer to one big confusing question. Who knows, maybe I am being too emotional, maybe I don't want there to be some way to influence me...but I guess only time, and further reading will tell. I never intended to further fan the flames, so I will be stepping away from this topic for now...I should have realized that I would get thrashed when Dai agreed with me . Nick Fox PS: I am still looking for the color study that I saw that was done sans hypnosis. I'll let you know what I find. |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
Don't feel a need to walk away, Nick. Open minds, no matter how expertly or inexpertly informed, should always be welcome in an interesting conversation.
John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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DaiBato Veteran user 310 Posts |
I am taking the introductory course in hypnosis at the Hypnosis Motivation Institute in Tarzana, California. I will give my account of what that class is like after the class ends on August 17th.
Dai Bato |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
Excellent, Dai. One of the hardest parts of any journey is taking the first steps.
John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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The Doktor New user Spiderskull Island 98 Posts |
DaiBato
The Doktor hopes you are actually attending these classes. You can't learn hypnosis online through their distance learning program. H D X!
“Look down at me and you see a fool;
look up at me and you see a god; look straight at me and you see yourself” “I'm not your eXecutioner. I'm not your devil and I'm not your God. I'm just The Doktor." H D X! |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Hey Doctor, even though you have an annoying habit of refering to yourself in the third person, Danny Doyle must agree with you. Learn in person!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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The Doktor New user Spiderskull Island 98 Posts |
Hey Danny, even though you have an annoying habit of missspelling The Doktor it pleases The Doktor that we agree. At least for now...muwahahahahahah!
“Look down at me and you see a fool;
look up at me and you see a god; look straight at me and you see yourself” “I'm not your eXecutioner. I'm not your devil and I'm not your God. I'm just The Doktor." H D X! |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Well Dok, if my misspelling annoys you, please just stop reading my posts!we do indeed agree for now NYUK NYUK NYUK ( or however you spell Curleys laugh )
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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DaiBato Veteran user 310 Posts |
73 replies to my original question!
My goodness, I certainly seem to have hit a nerve with this one. Dai Bato |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Dai you should look at how many responses were to the actual question. Quite few actually
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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DaiBato Veteran user 310 Posts |
I am attending in person, don't worry.
Dai Bato |
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
Here's a post I made with abstracts and papers about hypnosis. The complete topic is at The Truth About Waking Hypnosis.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts |
Okay, it seems that several of us are arguing our agreement in words that SOUND like disagreement. This seems to be a reasonably common happening on message boards and one that, when I find myself in the middle of one and finally realize it, I have to stand back and chuckle at myself.
Hypnosis, regardless of whatever else it might be, is a COOPERATIVE state, regardless of the "depth" or "profundity" of the state that the volunteer or client may achieve during a session. That said, it becomes reasonably obvious that, without cooperation, hypnosis - as in the volunteer achieving the state we call hypnosis and being able to experience all of the things that one is able to experience when IN the state of hypnosis, becomes reasonably difficult to impossible. Therein lies the rub for a lot of people, I am willing to bet, because, due to years of Hollywood hype, urban legends and the teachings of misguided instructors in schools, many people seem to have been led to believe that, once hypnotized, a person IS hypnotized until something happesn OUTSIDE of themselves, that will terminate the hypnotic state. This is simply and demonstrably NOT TRUE. Does this cooperative requirement deny the fact of hypnosis existing as a discrete brainwave or brain activity state? Obviously, the answer to that is "No." Here's why - if one takes as an example, biofeedback training to change brainwave level outputs as a corollary, then one sees immediately that cooperation can be an ESSENTIAL part OF a mental state change process, such as changing brainwave output and hypnosis. If a person decides to distract themselves during a biofeedback session, he likelihood that they will produce alpha or theta waves during the session becomes drastically reduced. However, if they cooperate and follow the instructions, even self-instructions, then their success rate increases, markedly, to the point of statistical near-certainty after a certain level of experience. Hypnosis has been shown to be little different. Hence, we have the problem with the skeptical (read disbelieving, as a true skeptic does not go into something with a preconception, but an open mind), community on this issue. That makes for some interesting exchanges, that's for sure. Second point: The Randi article - I did not read that particular article. Randi admitted that he had not read the work and, to be honest, a double-blind test is not always the best methodology for testing everything and, in some cases, it is simply impossble to USE that methodology. Randi's article, as quoted, was a pretty blistering attack on the work cited. For him to close with a statement about "I hope someone who has read the work will address the issue (of using a double-blind test, etc.)" (or words to that effect) reveals a tendency towards something called the hyperbole. The article is a full court attack on the research, yet finishes with a perfectly logical question about the design of an experiment that could have been asked at the outset without all of the rest of the emotionally-based language that went before it. The entire article could have been done as a letter to the editor asking, "Did they control for: average hypnotizeables and did they use a double-blind testing method in these tests?" But Randi, as usual, attacked first, getting what seems to be his agenda across right off and THEN asks what probably should have been asked at the outset as a clean, unhampered question about methodology. I have noted, in an earlier post, that experimenter bias is one of the Cardinal Sins in the behavioral sciences. Randi, it seems, is showing a touch of that in this article. To attack something like that and THEN reveal that he hasn't read it is not very ... unbiased. And if you read the rest of the article, it certainly reads like an attack. The language used certainly seems to be in keeping with an attack. And that would throw his final statement into the category of an attempt at deflection from his true attitude about the work in question, wouldn't it? Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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suspectacts Elite user Boston 493 Posts |
Dai,
Just because you hit a nerve doesn't mean it was a good question. And just because you say you weren't out to ruffle anyone's feathers doesn't mean the question won't offend or upset people. There are lots of questions that people ask (either because they are ignorant or a bit daft or something) that cause all kinds of discussion, but that doesn't mean that the person asking has done anything worthwhile. I have been following this discussion but have chosen not to post because since I found your initial post so blunt and ill informed, I didn't feel that chiming in was worthwhile. But let me slow down so that I can point out where I believe you went wrong: Post 1 - "Hypnosis works as a therapy that treats psychosomatic disorders and as stage entertainment. But does it really exist outside of people's beliefs? Science would say no, and I tend to agree from what I've researched." If you had done any RESEARCH at all you would know that hypnosis has been used to do much much more then treat psychosomatic disorders. In fact (please someone correct me if I'm wrong) the whole concept of psychosomatic disorders is way out of date, now that science has a better understanding of how the mind and body interact. Nicotine addiction, weight loss, pain reduction (just to name the most obvious examples) - are these psychosomatic (based on whatever definition you have)? If so what about tendonitis? All pain is 'generated' by the nervous system and ends up in the brain, so maybe it's also fake. But then is all mental health psychosomatic? What about autism? Or non-trauma based coma? Also due to brain function... Are they real? But forget your first statement, Let's talk about what's real. Are you memories real? Can I claim that you are lying or mistaken when you say you remember something? Your memories of age 13 can't be trapped in a bottle or measured (distinct from another memory) so maybe they don't really exist. What about your sense of humor, or empathy or parental love? Where's the physical evidence, Dai? what about the concept of 12%? You can show me examples, but it doesn't exist outside our minds. Maybe all Mathematics is fake? Just becuase it works doesn't mean it's real, right? But wait, neuroscientists at Stanford ( Freakin' Stanford!) have done extensive study on the topic. But why read that when you can ask a bunch of whomevers who populate this board to VOTE on whether a highly researched phenomenon exists. What did you expect, Dai, why not ask us to chime in about the velocity of a falling object? Or the position of the sun in relation to the planets? But none of that made me write in. It was your 'democracy' line. Let me get this straight: You have the right to ask ill-informed questions without being ridiculed? Where in the U.S. constitution is that Right? An open society (which by the way doesn't exist - it's all in our minds) doesn't promise that you will be treated with kid gloves when you act ham-handed. This is America not Mrs. Oliver's 2nd Grade class. Best of luck with the class on the 17th. I hope it begins to answer all your questions. |
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mota Inner circle 1658 Posts |
I never thought to ask a basic question...Dai mentions his research in his first post. No one has thought he might have good reasons for asking this question.
Dai... Specifically what was your research? I should also add that the course you mention (offering a free certification as a hypnotist!) is an upsell to their pay course. |
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hkwiles Special user Howard Wiles 797 Posts |
Anyone got kids? when you took them up to bed at night in order to get them to sleep I bet you spoke in a slow, monotonous tone and slowly stroked their forehead
probably telling them they were feeling sleepy. (If you say you didn't then you are lying) Did it work? Course it did...good example of an induction. Kids are quite easy to put into an altered state..they have vivid imaginations and also don't ask themselves the question " is hypnosis fake?" Howard |
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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts |
Some comments and a personal plea to the forum at large...
Folks, we're getting a bit heated here and I would hate to see the plug get pulled, so let's all step back ad take a deep breath before this gets too out of hand. Dai, your upcoming class should yield some interesting information and experiences for you. At least I hope it does and isn't simply a long sales pitch for their pay program. However, PLEASE, before you post anything more on this topic, please read my post above on this regarding the cooperative aspect of hypnosis and brain finction. I believe that the relation to hypnosis and the proven effects of biofeedback on brainwave patterns shows that the research I have already cited not only supports my thesis in this, but also blows Randi's arguments out of the water as well. Especially as his arguments were couched behind a smokescreen designed to make his attack SEEM like an honest inquiry into experimental design, which, in this instance, he hadn't even read. For the rest of you, I would ask (read: plead!) that we keep this on a rational level. I am not sure who will be moderating the group in August and I would hate to see the thread get pulled (it leads to nasty-looking runs in the fabric and all that, you know! ). Sincerely, Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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Autumn Morning Star Grammar Hostess Today, I corrected grammar in 1378 Posts |
Thank you, Lee for reminding us that we are here to share our own unique ideas and knowledge. I also have something to share.
I have seen some hypnotist comedians make people "quack like a duck" or do other embarassing things onstage. I always avoided volunteering because hypnosis works well on me. I prefer to refrain from public quacking! I have dental work done with hypnosis because of allergies to lidocaine. It works well. The suggestion is given where "I will feel only pressure and no pain". The more pressure, the more numb my mouth becomes. I once found myself leaning INTO the drill! During this state of mind, I am aware of everything around me. I can hear the dentist and the assistant talking softly to each other. It is as if I am listening from a distance. There is only one residual side-effect: I have found when someone touches my face for an extended period of time (the way my hypnotist does), my mouth becomes numb like when I am about to have dental work done. It is likely a subliminal suggestion gone awry. Whether placebo effect or mind over matter, hypnosis is effective on me. Still, I have never "quacked like a duck" in the dentist's chair! (Hmmm... at least I don't believe I have.)
Wonder is very necessary in life. When we're little kids, we're filled with wonder for the world - it's fascinating and miraculous. A lot of people lose that. They become cynical and jaded, especially in modern day society. Magic renews that wonder.
Doug Henning |
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Christophercarter Regular user 132 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-07-30 23:14, Lee Darrow wrote: I understand that two people can see the same things, yet reach two different conclusions. I look at the Randi quote provided by Dai and see nothing of the attack you describe. There is only the first sentence which describes what Randi sees as a "long and checkered history" to hypnosis. That could arguably be considered an attack on the history of hypnosis, but if it is it's only a very mild one. At no time in the quote provided does Randi utter an attack on the research being discussed, full court or otherwise. In fact, except to say that he has questions about the procedure that he hopes some readers can fill in for him, he offers no editorial content about the study at all. Randi's opinions about the research cannot be deduced solely from the quote given. --Chris |
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