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aiki
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Tom,

I go back to what I posted about one of your video's before. You always look sharp in appearance, you never look like a bum and I do not think your audience would ever think you were a bum. There are performers who dress down and just about look like bums. They feel it makes people more willing to pay for the show than if they were better dressed. I do not believe this. I base this on my perception as a person in the audience who has seen performers that looked like bums, so they earn what a bum would earn, not what a professional performer would earn. Look at Danny, nobody would think his outfit made him look like a bum, maybe a little strange but he already has the audience more on is side just because of his outfit.
Ray K.

Till we meet again!
Tom Frank
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Ray,

Regardless of how I'm dressed, it is not uncommon for someone to toss in my hat, a quarter, a nickle and four pennies. This coming from a well dressed man who feels like that's enough for his three kids who just loved the show.

I don't get it.

TF

It's a journey, not a destination. . . . I guess. . .
JoeJoe
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Quote:
On 2006-08-11 12:13, Tom Frank wrote:
Perhaps, if you like, I can share the results.


I would like to hear the results ... it's my basic belief that the general public knows that a street performer is going to solict a tip at the end. In the South East (where I am) this behavior is frowned upon in the same way that begging would be.

Many cities here pass street performing ordances which do not allow the perform to solict a tip. Like in Savannah GA, you can have a tip receptical out (of a certain size) but the performer can not mention it or gesture towards it during the performance. Highly unconstitutional, but still the law.

I would hope other areas view it differntly.

JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
Bill Palmer
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Here's a question.

The Constitution of the United States states:
Quote:
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Nowhere in that section of the Bill of Rights does it state that local governments cannot make such a law, simply that congress cannot. It also does not state that a public place, such as a bar or a restaurant has to allow a person entry if he is wearing a T-shirt with an obscenity on it, or anything else that may displease the owner.

So, how is this Savannah GA law unconstitutional?

Bear in mind that I do not agree with it.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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JoeJoe
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Because the Supreme Court has held that "due process" clause also restricts the states - meaning that the state governments cannot abridge free speech either. Nor can the legistlative or judicial branches of government for that matter.

And they have also ruled that free speech can have commerical content as well, meaning we have every right to ask for money.

I believe it to be unreasonable that I would not be allowed to mention I have a tip jar out ... or to so much as even point to it for that matter. I should not have to pretend it doesn't exist.

Being as how the areas of street performing in Savannah are owned by the "public", I have as much right to solict a tip as a politician has to solict a campaign contribution ... who has as much right as a church to solicit a donation ... who has as much right as a bum to solict spare change.

-JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
Danny Hustle
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Quote:
On 2006-08-11 16:22, Tom Frank wrote:
Ray,

Regardless of how I'm dressed, it is not uncommon for someone to toss in my hat, a quarter, a nickle and four pennies. This coming from a well dressed man who feels like that's enough for his three kids who just loved the show.

I don't get it.

TF

It's a journey, not a destination. . . . I guess. . .


Tom,

That is not because he thinks you are a bum. It is because he is a jerk. He is doing that on purpose in an effort to tick you off. He has just spent his day at his horrible job where all day long he is getting screamed at by someone who is an even bigger idiot that he is. At the end of the day when he sees somebody like YOU out there doing something you love and making money it fills him with a seething hate. He wants to crush you, he wants to make you feel bad, and he wants you to know that HE is better than you.

If you are interested in how I know this it is because I worked with guys. I was in the six figure suit and tie market before I chucked it and did this full time. When they found out I was a street performer they would all tell me the same thing. And it was some variation of the above. "Yeah, I treat those guys like dirt. "I" work for a living. I went to college. Have you ever seen how much money some of those guys make! It is disgusting! They probably drive a better car than I do for crying out loud! Well, let me tell you what I do. I walk right up to his hat with two cents in my hand and MAKE SURE he sees me put it in! HAHAHA! OH they lose their minds! I had one scream at me all the way down the street! I loved it!"

These people live a miserable life that I would not wish on anyone.

Interestingly, on the flip side I can give you 100 examples of when a guy who is a bartender, general contractor, mason, or other skilled tradesman has come up and dropped a twenty into my hat because they are people who create something. They understand what it is we do. These are people who create. Mr. Suit and tie works for corporate America in a position of laying off, mergers, sell outs, and close downs. They destroy for a living. Of course they are miserable. Because of that they sure as heck do not want to see us out there having a blast and making money.

Bottom line, they don't think you are a bum. They have a problem looking the guy they see when they are shaving in the eye.

Best,

Dan-
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"MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm
©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved.
ed rhodes
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Quote:
On 2006-08-12 10:43, Danny Hustle wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-08-11 16:22, Tom Frank wrote:
Ray,

Regardless of how I'm dressed, it is not uncommon for someone to toss in my hat, a quarter, a nickle and four pennies. This coming from a well dressed man who feels like that's enough for his three kids who just loved the show.

I don't get it.

TF

It's a journey, not a destination. . . . I guess. . .


Tom,

That is not because he thinks you are a bum. It is because he is a jerk. He is doing that on purpose in an effort to tick you off. He has just spent his day at his horrible job where all day long he is getting screamed at by someone who is an even bigger idiot that he is. At the end of the day when he sees somebody like YOU out there doing something you love and making money it fills him with a seething hate. He wants to crush you, he wants to make you feel bad, and he wants you to know that HE is better than you.

If you are interested in how I know this it is because I worked with guys. I was in the six figure suit and tie market before I chucked it and did this full time. When they found out I was a street performer they would all tell me the same thing. And it was some variation of the above. "Yeah, I treat those guys like dirt. "I" work for a living. I went to college. Have you ever seen how much money some of those guys make! It is disgusting! They probably drive a better car than I do for crying out loud! Well, let me tell you what I do. I walk right up to his hat with two cents in my hand and MAKE SURE he sees me put it in! HAHAHA! OH they lose their minds! I had one scream at me all the way down the street! I loved it!"


Could just be they're cheap! Also, I wouldn't scream at them. If they made an effort to make certain I SAW two pennies go in, I would say; "If that's the best you can do sir, God bless you in your poverty!"
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2006-08-12 01:18, JoeJoe wrote:
Because the Supreme Court has held that "due process" clause also restricts the states - meaning that the state governments cannot abridge free speech either. Nor can the legistlative or judicial branches of government for that matter.

And they have also ruled that free speech can have commerical content as well, meaning we have every right to ask for money.

I believe it to be unreasonable that I would not be allowed to mention I have a tip jar out ... or to so much as even point to it for that matter. I should not have to pretend it doesn't exist.

Being as how the areas of street performing in Savannah are owned by the "public", I have as much right to solict a tip as a politician has to solict a campaign contribution ... who has as much right as a church to solicit a donation ... who has as much right as a bum to solict spare change.

-JoeJoe


It's true that the Supreme Court has also said this restricts the states; however, it does not keep the local areas from having certain restrictions. I've read most of the cases posted at the various forums. For example, if you want to play your bagpipes at 2:00 in the morning next to a hotel in downtown Savannah, they can have you tossed in the pokey for violating a noise ordinance.

If you don't like it, get the buskers' group to help you sue them.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Danny Hustle
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Quote:
Could just be they're cheap! Also, I wouldn't scream at them. If they made an effort to make certain I SAW two pennies go in, I would say; "If that's the best you can do sir, God bless you in your poverty!"


1. if they were cheap they would not put anything in your hat. When someone goes to the trouble to put two cents in your hat they are not cheap, they are making a statement.

2. I do not scream at anyone. I really do not pay attention to what anybody puts in the hat. I thank everyone who puts something in big or small. I also thank those who don't have anything to put in but come up and shake my hand and thank me for the show. I give my show to anybody who wants it. I ask those who can afford admission to pay me what they think the show is worth when it is over. It is the most honest form of entertainment in the world for just that reason. So far, it has been a good enough to turn a profit. In the example above I was citing an example and paraphrasing several conversations with my co-workers in corporate America. The only time I ever noticed somebody dropping two cents into my hat I didn't say a word, but an audience member laid into the guy pretty bad.

Now my friend Sunny, he says something, and he never forgets a back! Ya hear! Smile

Best,

Dan-
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"MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm
©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved.
Harry Murphy
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I have some opening lines that educate the public in a humorous manner. I get right to the point about the beggar thing. I guess this is along the lines of Danny’s “educating the public”.

Once a reasonable crowd has joined me and we are ready for the show to begin.

I say “ I know what many of you are thinking. You’re thinking ‘isn’t it a shame that a clean, little, old man, is forced to begging in this day and age? WOAH!!! NOW you’re thinking ‘gosh he’s a mind reader as well!!!’” I wait for the laugh and it always comes.

“Well folks you have Social Security to thank for me being out here.” Wait for the laugh.

“Now friends what you are about to see is the show of your life! And if you come away amazed, amused, or just plain entertained then maybe you’ll show your appreciation by dropping something in my hat. Those of you who have to leave early and liked what you got to watch, then you can leave a token in my hat right there (points to the top hat sitting on the ground).” OK so I start with a hat line!

“This is not begging folks! No this is street theater AT IT’S BEST!!! You‘re going to love the stuff I do! I‘m going to AMAZE, BAFFLE, and CONFOUND you! You‘re going to see…(I describe the act) and the next 12 minutes is going to be the best of your day!” OK, so I am a bit hyperbolic, but I warn them of their time commitment and what they can expect to see. More education here.

All the time I am cutting and restoring a rope. Again and again and again as I pace the edge smiling, and letting them know what a nice, friendly guy I am. And the show is on!

By the way, since I am elderly, portly, and under-tall, my opening lines are actually descriptive. I use a version of those lines to start many (most) of my shows in different venues (clubs, pubs, bars, and festivals).



Like Danny I don’t attend to what is going into the hat except to try to thank every contributor.

If the police invite me to close-up shop and move on, I do so without argument. I sometimes, AFTER, I have closed-up will ask an officer (very respectfully) what I need to do (license, etc.) or where I need to set-up to be allowed to entertain these hard working folks. I often will show a card trick as I am talking to him/her. Sometimes I win them over, often not. It’s not worth a argument and they are just doing their jobs.

But that is just me and I could be wrong!
The artist formally known as Mumblepeas!
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Quote:
On 2006-08-11 19:58, Bill Palmer wrote:
Here's a question.

The Constitution of the United States states:
Quote:
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Nowhere in that section of the Bill of Rights does it state that local governments cannot make such a law, simply that congress cannot. It also does not state that a public place, such as a bar or a restaurant has to allow a person entry if he is wearing a T-shirt with an obscenity on it, or anything else that may displease the owner.

So, how is this Savannah GA law unconstitutional?

Bear in mind that I do not agree with it.


The Constitution is always quite spacific, no matter what anyone tells you. When the Framers mean the state, they write state, when they mean people, they write people, when they mean congress, they write congress.

The most easily read and most misunderstood document in history.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
RobertBloor
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Ahhh magicians discussing the Consitution. Little bit like figuring out who has the best double lift.

Quote:
Bill Palmer: Nowhere in that section of the Bill of Rights does it state that local governments cannot make such a law, simply that congress cannot.
So, how is this Savannah GA law unconstitutional?


Bill, you're right to a certain extent. It's not in THAT section of the Bill of Rights. It IS however in the TENTH & FOURTEENTH amendments.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


This means the State can not trump the Constitution (where the Constitution has specifically addressed such issue)

But more specifically...

Amendment XIV, Section 1
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


That's the due process spoke of earlier.

Quote:
Danny: The Constitution is always quite spacific, no matter what anyone tells you. When the Framers mean the state, they write state, when they mean people, they write people, when they mean congress, they write congress.


Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


You're darn straight about that, Danny. When they mean the people, they write the people. Just wish others would get the picture on that.

Quote:
Bill Palmer: It also does not state that a public place, such as a bar or a restaurant has to allow a person entry if he is wearing a T-shirt with an obscenity on it, or anything else that may displease the owner.


A bar or restaurant is NOT a public place. It is a PRIVATE business.

So ends concludes our lesson for today. Smile

Robert
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Quote:
A bar or restaurant is NOT a public place. It is a PRIVATE business.

So ends concludes our lesson for today. Smile

Robert


Tell that to the City Fathers when they tell you that you must ban smokers from your private business.
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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2006-08-15 10:02, RobertBloor wrote:
Ahhh magicians discussing the Consitution. Little bit like figuring out who has the best double lift.

Quote:
Bill Palmer: Nowhere in that section of the Bill of Rights does it state that local governments cannot make such a law, simply that congress cannot.
So, how is this Savannah GA law unconstitutional?


Bill, you're right to a certain extent. It's not in THAT section of the Bill of Rights. It IS however in the TENTH & FOURTEENTH amendments.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


This means the State can not trump the Constitution (where the Constitution has specifically addressed such issue)

But more specifically...

Amendment XIV, Section 1
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


That's the due process spoke of earlier.

Quote:
Danny: The Constitution is always quite spacific, no matter what anyone tells you. When the Framers mean the state, they write state, when they mean people, they write people, when they mean congress, they write congress.


Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


You're darn straight about that, Danny. When they mean the people, they write the people. Just wish others would get the picture on that.

Quote:
Bill Palmer: It also does not state that a public place, such as a bar or a restaurant has to allow a person entry if he is wearing a T-shirt with an obscenity on it, or anything else that may displease the owner.


A bar or restaurant is NOT a public place. It is a PRIVATE business.

So ends concludes our lesson for today. Smile

Robert


Robert, here again we agree! Told you we agreed on a LOT more than you may think.

I wasn't going to bring up the second amendment as it is so hot button, but it is indeed what I was refering to, even if in a back handed manner. RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE, not the state mind you , THE PEOPLE. You got it brother! No reason to think that the framers made one exception to their spacific references to people and state.

While we are on it, people will always point to "well regulated militia" phrase.That this is why we keep and bear arms. No more militia, no more right. A bit of a strange inturpretation of the amendment for a number of reasons. Chief among them is the fact that the Constitution has already made provisions for the existance and arming of a militia in the Atricle I, Section 8. (Seriously I looked it up).

Glad to see it before the mods. delete us for being off topic.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
JoeJoe
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Quote:
On 2006-08-12 20:20, Bill Palmer wrote:
If you don't like it, get the buskers' group to help you sue them.


If it was my pitch I would. While they can pass reasonable restrictions to protect public safety, I fail to see how me pretending that my tip jar doesn't exist is reasonable in any way shape or form. Politicans are allowed to solict contributions, churches are allowed to solicit donations, bums can solicit spare change, and girl scouts can sell cookies ... as buskers, we have every right to solict a tip too.

-JoeJoe
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NJJ
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Quote:
On 2006-08-12 10:43, Danny Hustle wrote:
That is not because he thinks you are a bum. It is because he is a jerk. He is doing that on purpose in an effort to tick you off. He has just spent his day at his horrible job where all day long he is getting screamed at by someone who is an even bigger idiot that he is. At the end of the day when he sees somebody like YOU out there doing something you love and making money it fills him with a seething hate. He wants to crush you, he wants to make you feel bad, and he wants you to know that HE is better than you.




I hate people like that. Whilst its never happened to me whilst busking. I often get people saying things like "I guess, you'll give this up when you've got kids to support" or "I admire you doing this instead of going on the dole (welfare)" or that worst of the worst "What do you do for a living?"

What burns me the most is that, most of the time I make WAY more then they do, do WAY less work and love what I do WAY more.
JamesinLA
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Isn't the bill of rights the first 10 amendments?

Jim
Oh, my friend we're older but no wiser, for in our hearts the dreams are still the same...
Dannydoyle
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Yea, in fact the first 10.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
johnnymystic
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I was kicked off my pitch and ran outta town today!!!

Okay...I wasn't really run outta town but it felt like it! While trying to busk today in Williamstown Ma. The local police and campus police pull up and tell me to take a hike, what I'm doing is PANHANDLING and because I hope for tips its the same thing!

Theres even this young lady who goes to almost the same spot, plays guitar, leaves her case open for tips...she didn't get run off and on top of it was in the local paper for doing! What the hell!!!???

I looked up the city ordinance laws and such and there is nothing saying I can't do what I wanna do and that's busk, there isn't even any laws against panhandling.

So what do I do?

johnny
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NJJ
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If it were me, I would send out a press release and get some media coverage of your own about the incident!
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