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Patrick Redford Inner circle Michigan 1751 Posts |
I just saw this posted over on the Genii forum.
Having some first hand knowledge on how the politics of television function, it would be very dangerous for Discovery (or any other station) to pull anything like this at all. Now it is true that stations do try to emulate other successful television programs but it would be the kiss-of-death if they lifted items directly. Emulation of a genre is one thing (and happens all the time) copying format and effects would defiantly get any network into some hot water. I happen to like all parties involved here and it saddens me to see this getting out of hand. -Patrick Redford Here's the post: Quote: I just saw this posted up at the Genii forum. |
The Doktor New user Spiderskull Island 98 Posts |
For those of you that don't know Alain or haven't heard this, the demonstration that got Alain the final word on the show was a Any Card at Any Number. The deck was shuffled etc. and chance really did put their card at their selected number it was one of those freak things that happens and it sealed the deal.
Similarly The Doktor stopped a t.v. executives pulse. It never started and The Doktor has been banned from that network forever. Oops I did it agagin! H D X!
“Look down at me and you see a fool;
look up at me and you see a god; look straight at me and you see yourself” “I'm not your eXecutioner. I'm not your devil and I'm not your God. I'm just The Doktor." H D X! |
adolphus Loyal user 229 Posts |
How does this kind of misinformation get started?
I helped on Alain's pre-pilot crew starting around Mar. '04. The effects were all his. There was never any mention of Angel and his shows weren't even broadcast yet. The only time I heard of a flare-up was over using the word "Mind..." or "Mind Games" in their proposed show titles (it's long, generic use was already discussed here). Was this the "CONCEPT" Alain stole? For the broadcasts, I understand that Alain and his brilliant peeps (including John R.) literally sequestered themselves until they came out of a room with well over 4 hours of original material. O-R-I-G-I-N-A-L. None of the effects were thought-up, or ever "suggested," by the producers or TLC. Of course, they selected and edited as they wished (but that's the World of TEEVEE). But the material came strictly from Alain's side.
"Unlike the mere Conjuror, the Mentalist reaches into that space which a hat normally covers. And from there, he withdraws something more fleeting - and at times, far fuzzier - than any rabbit"
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Stephan Therien New user Quebec/Canada 67 Posts |
The only guy who got is concept ripped to my opinion is David Blain.
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MentaThought Special user 615 Posts |
I'm a bit confused: three television networks were mentioned in the selected text quoted in Patrick's originating post: A&E, Discovery and TLC.
I purchased Alain Nu's DVD's of the 4-part series (a series I really enjoyed, by the way, and which includes an absolutely extraordinary card-at-any-number effect) and, if I recall correctly, it originally aired on the TLC network. Criss Angel's series is on A&E. So where does The Discovery Channel figure in all of this?
"A good mentalist ... will teach you a miracle because he understands the subtleties ..." -- Banachek
"If this works it'll be BEAUTIFUL!" - The Amazing Kreskin on a stunning effect he performed on his 1970s television series (PS: it worked) |
Lior Inner circle 1961 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-08-10 22:14, Stephan Therien wrote: David Blaine is on his way to Israel 15-19 AUG
The Lior Touch
https://1amagic.com/ PEA Dave Lederman Award 2009 PEA Dunninger Award 2001 Life Time Achivmeant IUPA 2016 |
mysticz Special user D.C. metro area 680 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-08-10 23:50, MentaThought wrote: I believe Discovery Communications owns both the Discovery Channel and TLC. For what it's worth, I worked with Alain along with Adolphus and a few other friends as part of Nu's pre-pilot, idea-bouncing crew. As Adolphus has stated, Criss Angel and his work did not factor a bit into our discussions, and much of Alain's material used in his specials was his own. Joe Z.
Joe Zabel
"Psychic Sorcery" There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. -- Shakespeare's Hamlet I.v. 174-175 |
MagicbyCarlo Inner circle has squandered his time making 1062 Posts |
Richard Kaufman incorrectly stated that the idea for Alain Nu's special was borrowed from Chris Angel. I would expect Richard to be a bit more dilligent before posting such comments. Chris in fact called Alain when he got wind of the project and admonished Alain for "stealing his material". What?! Alain asked Chris what in his act was stolen and Chris stated that bending metal and moving things with the mind were "...part of my world." What?! Chris, ever heard of Uti Geller, Steve Shaw or Alain NU? Who by the way I saw doing metal bending long before anyone knew who Chris Angel was. I'm sorry, this is just a load of crap. Alain is one of the most ethical, innovative and original mentalists that I have ever had the pleasure of seeing. Anything that wasn't original to him on those specials was used with permission and always had added NU touches.
Before actually knowing of this thread I posted this on SAMTalk in response to someone stating that they were disturbed by Angel's tactics: Well, Richard, you are not alone. It annoys me that Cris Angel intentionally gives the impression that he can accomplish these effects impromptu with a real audience present. The issue with this is that it creates an expectation in the public's mind. While Cris Angel portrays such great power at the drop of a hat on his A&E special, on live TV, on one of the network morning shows, he does a card trick. A CARD TRICK! Come on Chris, why not stand on a table, lift a sheet and vanish? Pull someone off the street and pull them in half! Walk up the side of a building! And honestly, when people start a discussion about this with me this is the answer they get. I would never discuss the techniques, but I do say that the situations that are portrayed regarding audience, and the impromptu nature of many of Chris' effects are not what they seem. That usually ends any further inquiry. These aren’t sour grapes. I love to see magic and magicians succeed; it’s good for business. But some of the things that Angel has done cheapen the craft of those that perform real on the spot magic in the trenches. That’s the curse of TV magic specials, they have a hungry maw that needs to be filled and at some point you feed them your dignity. I applaud performers like Alain Nu, who was able to do a special with material that he works in real world performances and can do “as advertised”. Here endeth the rant.
Carlo DeBlasio
<BR>Entertainment specialist <BR>and all around fun guy! |
MentaThought Special user 615 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-08-11 09:29, mysticz wrote: Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 2006-08-11 13:05, MagicbyCarlo wrote: Chris in fact called Alain when he got wind of the project and admonished Alain for "stealing his material". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I find that account extraordinary, if true. One has to wonder if David Blaine likewise had ever called Criss Angel and attempted to admonish *him* for what IMHO could more credibly be construed as "stealing". It would appear that Criss Angel should the last person in the world to accuse/berate anyone for such an alleged transgression (not that I give any credence whatsoever to the alleged claim that Alain Nu ever "stole" anything from Criss Angel.) By the way, anyone know if Criss Angel is planning to sit atop a tall pole in Las Vegas before the summer's end? Joe, I don't see how ANY connection could reasonably be inferred between Alain Nu's series and Criss Angel's. I mean, the two appear soooo different personally and performance-wise.
"A good mentalist ... will teach you a miracle because he understands the subtleties ..." -- Banachek
"If this works it'll be BEAUTIFUL!" - The Amazing Kreskin on a stunning effect he performed on his 1970s television series (PS: it worked) |
Jim-Callahan V.I.P. 5018 Posts |
I think he already is sitting on some pole.
If not he sure has me fooled. Jim H.o.A-X
“I can make Satan’s devils dance like fine gentlemen across the stage of reality”.
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
Jim:
He is not exactly sitting on it, but the stick is there. Tony |
Jim-Callahan V.I.P. 5018 Posts |
Hey but he looks happy.
SO who am I to judge? Comment yes. Judge? No Jim H.O.A-X
“I can make Satan’s devils dance like fine gentlemen across the stage of reality”.
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Douglas.M Elite user 465 Posts |
What disturbs me is why Kaufmann keeps bringing up this hearsay.
First, in the pages of Genii Magazine (an organ published and edited by Mr. Kaufmann), Criss Angel whines that somebody copped his concept (mentalist is not named). Then, on April 29 2005 Mr. Kaufmann posts the following in his Genii Forum: "There is an untold story behind these specials: Criss Angel shopped his new TV series concept to various channels, including The Learning Channel. Learning Channel didn't win the bidding for the series (A&E did). But Learning Channel immediately copped the concept and went looking for a magician to appear in the shows. They found Alain Nu. That is how these shows came about." Alain himself responds in the same thread, and asks Mr. Kaufmann if he could prove or back up his claims, but Mr. Kaufmann could only point his finger back at Criss Angel, essentially taking zero responsibility for his hearsay: "Hi Richard, I'd like to know where you have gotten this information. Do you know this as a fact? I 'heard' that TLC copped the idea of airing their own magic special after running Blaine's first special a while back and noticing that he had gotten ratings for them. I heard this specifically from my producer. I have since made calls to both him and my exec producer at TLC to ask them if what you wrote is true. But most importantly, Richard, can you support your claim with a source? If your source is Criss Angel, can you give me factual data that would show that he knows how long my producer has been working with me and TLC on this "concept"? Finally, to all others regarding your well wishes, criticisms, positive and negative feedback, and general interest watching my first two of four specials: I agree with you completely. And thank you for watching! [Smile] Peace, Alain" Mr. Kaufmann responds by saying he received his information from Criss Angel, and that Alain could talk to his producer. Alain shouldn't have to defend himself, since the onus for "proving" the inane allegation rests on Mr. Angel and his apparent mouthpiece, Mr. Kaufmann. Apparently not satisfied by his previous shenanigans, Mr, Kaufmann posts the following in his forum on July 14 2006: "Criss shopped Mindfreak to a number of networks, one of them was the Discovery Channel. The deal was eventually made with A&E, but in the process the concept of the series was explained in detail (including many of the planned effects and stunts) to the bidding networks. After losing the bidding, Discovery then put together a series of four TV shows using ideas from Mindfreak and hired Al Nu to be the performer. Criss was angry about this." Of course, when Mr. Kaufmann is admonished by those who worked on Alain's show, Mr. Kaufmann has the audacity to complain about all the fuss, stating that "nobody even remembers Alain's TV special anymore", even though it is he himself who cannot cease from repeatedly attempting to drag Alain through the mud. Ironically, when Richard Kaufmann posts RECENT unproved dirt on Alain Nu, and people shower the site with the actual facts (setting the record straight, again), this somehow is seen by the forum "moderator" as an attack on Richard Kaufmann: "Several people (but not Alain Nu) say that Criss Angel’s claim that Alain Nu’s Discovery Channel shows resulted from Discovery pinching Angel’s idea is a false one. "Those same people now want to take Richard Kaufman to task for recently repeating the claim that came directly from his interview with Criss Angel and THAT WENT UNCHALLENGED BY ANYONE FOR OVER A YEAR. If Alain Nu has a problem with Criss Angel, Alain Nu needs to take it up with Criss Angel. Having spokesmen—who I suspect are self-appointed—do it a year later might be considered by some “cowardly.” The fact is, Alain did respond to Richard's earlier hearsay, and Mr, Kaufmann simply shrugged off any responsibility for his comments and passed the buck. Plus, Criss Angel did not mention Alain Nu by name, as the "moderator" suggests, but Mr. Kaufmann HAS (repeatedly). I'm sorry, but Richard Kaufmann and his "moderator" can't have their cake and eat it too. To me this behavior goes way beyond mere shoddy journalism or sour grapes; it is petty, slimy and unethical behavior. It reminds me of when William Randolph Hearst tried (unsuccessfully) to smear the reputation of Annie Oakley. Smear tactics sometimes backfire, obviously. I would like to think that there is room in this world for Criss Angel, Alain Nu, David Blaine, or anyone else who breaks into another medium. Sadly, and unfortunately, it seems there are those who feel that there is only room for themselves (or their potential meal ticket). Douglas M. |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Before any more of this finger pointing over who stole whose idea for what is spread around, let me remind everyone that you cannot copyright or patent an idea. There is no protection for an idea. Anyone can say, "Well, I had that idea first." You can't prove when you had an idea. An idea is a nebulous thing.
The only things you can protect are manifestations of an idea. These include scripts, photographs, costumes, actual tricks, sculpture, costumes, all of that kind of thing. Copyrighting and patenting ideas is specifically prohibited under US intellectual property law. Was David Blaine the first magician to go up to people on the street and perform for them? No. He popularized it and he even used the term "Street Magic," which had been a term used by buskers for decades. Richard Kaufman has made no secret of his close friendship with Criss Angel. Maybe he has a tendency to look the other way when Criss starts hurling accusations.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
Bob Baker Inner circle 1111 Posts |
Anyone who has seen both Alain's specials and Criss's series could tell you in an instant that they simply have nothing to do with one another. The shows' styles, contents, performing personas, premises, etc are entirely different. The only similarity I see is that they are "magic" shows on television.
I am pretty quick to notice, and point out, when someone is ripping off another person (cf. Keith Barry's lifting of a Derren Brown idea), but I just don't see it here. I think the only party who deserves to be offended is Alain Nu; everyone else should cool their jets--just has Alain has! Bob |
PsiDroid Inner circle 2164 Posts |
Agreed. Mr.Baker knows what hes saying. Alain is a fine thinker and creator and does not need to steal ideas from others: especially Criss Angel.
I cannot believe that mr.Shaw and mr.Jermay have done such a shameful work with his show. the show is really boring when taken as a whole: editing and use of plants does not show creativity on their part,rather lack of it. they should not be paid for empty consulting like that,they should however pay Criss Angel for letting them "make no good" to his public image |
Count Lustig Elite user 456 Posts |
Douglas M.,
That was an outstanding and, I think, very fair and accurate recapping of the saga that unfolded on the Genii Forum. It’s a pity that, if you posted it on the Genii Forum, it would be instantly deleted. |
Douglas.M Elite user 465 Posts |
Thank you Count,
Once I put the timeline and posts together, I felt it had to be seen to be believed. Even without my narration and rather harsh (but justified) observations, I believe that most reasonable people would (more or less) reach the same conclusions. Smarmy, Yellow Journalism simply is not pretty. Alain Nu (God bless him) may be above responding to such tripe, but I am obviously not above exposing tripe for what it is. If you want to call it finger pointing, I guess that's as apt a description as any. I am outta here, Douglas M. |
Jim-Callahan V.I.P. 5018 Posts |
Oh you fellas are not saying Criss deals in tripe?
Y'all have seen the shows? Jim H.o.A-XX
“I can make Satan’s devils dance like fine gentlemen across the stage of reality”.
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michaangelo Regular user 184 Posts |
Let's not lose sight of the magicians who were on TV doing magic long before Nu, Angel, or Blaine... It's sad that anyone is threatened by another's success in our field. It is also sad that anyone has an idea or concept stolen... but seriously, much of wnat I see on these TV shows has been done before and is not credited to the originator...
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