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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You are getting sleepy...very sleepy... » » I Just Got Kreskin's 3 DVD's...I'm Confused? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Lee Darrow
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Magnus, until recently, Ontario had a strict set of laws regarding the performance of stage hypnotism that mirrored the laws in the UK. Reveen and others toured Canada but avoided Ontario for just that reason - or did shows along the lines that Kreskin did - hypnosis without it BEING hypnosis.

But in the last few years, according to my sources, that set of laws has been modified and one can now perform there - but check with Crown Authorities to be sure! I am not a Crown Subject, so play it safe!

Lee Darrow, C.H.
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<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
Magnus Eisengrim
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Thanks, Lee. I do not live in Ontario, so if there were restrictions on performances there, I would not have noticed. I'll see what I can find about the statutes and report back if anything worth noting comes up.

Crazy!

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Nongard1
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Its always amazing to me when a government says that a person cannot demonstrate a natural phenomena that occurs in all of our lives daily. It's a lot like saying an actor can't express trauma, depression or grief becasue it might psychologically upset someone. Or that Oprah can't ask personal questions on her TV show becasue it might embarass someone or cause them distress. I wonder if any of these laws have ever been enforced? I suspect most of these laws come from one of three sources (including the Indiana law):
1.) Religious groups who do not understand trance as a natural phenomena
2.) Medical/psychology groups that want to "corner the hypnosis" market
3.) Lawmakers blindly trying to protect the public from something because they feel it's their job to protect people who aren't "as smart as them".

I can't think of any other reason for such laws to have ever existed. The basic concept though, banning someone from pointing out the natural phonomena occuring in another person is illogical from a legal perspective, and probaly unenforceable.
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
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Lee Darrow
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Many of them come from well-meaning lawmakers who rubber stame legislation drafted by a small group of psychologists who seem to think that hypnosis is their private preserve (and whom the vast majority of the rest of the psychological cmmunity think are stone-cold nuts).

Lee Darrow, C.H.
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<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
Slim King
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Kreskins says that he'll guarentee that Hypnosis isn't real to the tune of $20,000, good until the DAY HE DIES!!!!!!
I could use the cash. Anyone want to join in the Class Action Lawsuit? Smile Smile
Dave
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Dannydoyle
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It would take far more dough than that to prove it
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Thoughtreader
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Kreskin's arguement is basically semantics. Quite simply and the real workers will understand this: "What people have been lead to believe is a hypnotic trance is not real and does not exist". For anyone that does work in the field, I highly recommend you read "The Busch Factor" which covers much of the "experience".

PSIncerely Yours,
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Nongard1
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Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
Learn how to master the art of SpeedTrance, Clinical and Stage Hypnosis
JeffMac
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I'm a little Confused by the hypnosis being Illegal in Ontario when was this changed. I have been a promoter here booking shows for over 10 years and have had hypnotists with 20 years experiance play my venue sice I started.
Lee Darrow
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Geoff, up until about 4 or 5 years ago, Ontario used the British Hypnotism Act of 1952 as the basis for its local legislation regarding hypnosis shows. Fortunately, unless a complaint was filed, no one ever bothered prosecuting it.

Now, as I understand it, the Act has been repealed.

However, check with the Provincial Offices and find out, directly. I am not a Crown Subject, not a solicitor in Canada...

Lee Darrow, C.H.
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<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
kcalB
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I'm suprised that the book entitled "They Call It Hypnosis" hasent been mentioned in this thread.

Lee & Danny I'n sure that you have both read it.

Best,
Black
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Nongard1
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Jeff-- apparently it was illegle in Kansas until a few years ago, but I never knew that, and neither did the club owners or the hypnotists, or the county fairs....
I think it is kinda like the sodomy laws... selectivly enforced...
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
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JeffMac
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Just researched it a little there was a Hypnosis Act in Ontario and it was repealed 10/10/1997. However it did not bar the Hypnosis but did require that you received a license and that you did not allow lewd, pornographic or acts which may cause bodily harm.
P.s. I'm Sure it's an honest mistake but I am positive my name is spelled with a J
Nongard1
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Acts that may casue bodily harm refers to muscular catalepsy demonstrations. (or other esoteric forms of hypno demonstration like blistering, etc.)

Lewd or obsecene? Canada could never prosocute on that one. The Canadian courts have already held adults can do what they want. Although brothels are not legal due to laws hanging over from the 1800's, escort prostitution is perfectly legal and all of the newspapers carry large ads for sex services. The attitude is much more European allowing sexy pictures in everyday newspapers, So I think an onstage orgasm with a fully clothed person would certanly not draw any attention from a Canadian court. And of it ever did, it could never be prosocuted-- kinda like the swingers club in Ontario that was busted, and prevailed in court, and that was even a challenge to the 1800's "bawdy house" laws they prevailed upon...
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
Learn how to master the art of SpeedTrance, Clinical and Stage Hypnosis
Tony Brent
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Lee is correct in everything he stated about the Canadian laws concerning stage hypnosis shows. In the nineties I wasn't allowed to perform my then-comedy magic and hypnosis show due to said law. I don't know about Kansas for sure but in the back of my mind Nongrad 1 may be right about that state as well. At one time I believe there were several states in the U.S. that would not allow hyp shows and there was a movement to ban hyp shows entirely that never got off the ground. Can anyone back me up on this?

Tony Brent
Orlando, Florida
Dannydoyle
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Wbich brings us to why Kreskin says what he says
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Allan-F
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It is worth pointing out here that, although there may be presentational and/or legal reasons behind Kreskin's "take" on hypnosis, there is also some attempt to formulate a falsifiable (i.e. scientific) claim, which goes something like this: what is popularly known as the "hypnotic trance" does not involve any distinctive, characteristic physiological state. This is the specific claim that he backs with cash, although he will often gloss it as "there is no such thing as hypnosis".

So what might you do to get his money? There are many mental states that correspond to very specific brain wave patterns... such as the famous P300 brain wave (used in some recent U.S. court cases as a "lie detector"), which roughly means "surprise, provoking action". If you could show a specific brain wave pattern--or any other physiological property of the brain--that accompanies an hypnotic trance, and only hypnotic trances, then you could presumably collect Kreskin's cash.

One problem is that there is a gray area. What if you showed a physiological state that mostly just accompanies intentionally induced hypnosis, but also appears in everyday life in a weaker form, and occasionally with full force but only under exceptional circumstances? Would this count? How uncommon, outside of intentionally induced hypnosis, would the state have to be to count?

Another issue is that, when he is being specific about his claim, he seems to target the hypnotic trance in particular. This, too, presents a grey area... is any induced hynotic state a "trance", or does there have to be an appearance of sleep or lack of conscious control, as popularly conceived of? What counts, in other words, as a trance? Defined very narrowly and in the popular sense, hardly any working hypnotist would claim to believe in the hypnotic trance (but then Kreskin has stated that his claim goes against the beliefs of many working hypnotists, not just the general public).

In spite of the gray area, I would think that if you showed clear evidence for a physiological characteristic of intentionally induced hypnosis that is only rarely or never present under other circumstances, that Kreskin would be hard pressed to deny you the cash, given all the things he has said.

Here is one possibility:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query......12470132

Allan
Allan-F

"What can be thought of or spoken of necessarily IS, since it is possible for it to be, while it is not possible for NOTHING to be." -- Parmenides
KingStardog
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As someone aquainted with Ormond, I can tell you and you can see from that work in the first encyclopedia, and with a tiny bit of experience. It is real and works about 60-80% of the time. the first book tells the story when there is mention of the chloroform sniffer and other items that an airtight performance requires a bit more than what people think. It may even require several shuffles of the subjects without additional 'items'. Several shuffles. Look at the bigger picture on that first book.

In the tiny amount of experience I do have, I have found that a single subject may only respond to 1 or 2 different scripts out of 4 or 5. I don't know why because the very next subject may respond to ones that were not effective on the first. Still haven't figured this out. Have found that some scripts are duds on most everyone so get the best instruction you can find and try several scripts written by differeent pros.
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
Unkani
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Here's my "2 cents" Years ago I went to a Kreskin concert (as he called them) in Little Rock with a group of my magician friends. I found the structure of the show very interesting (I'm a psychologist by profession), and although I may be wrong in my analysis, this is what my thoughts were: The first 1/2 of the show was a lot of monologue about himself that became boring to the point that I think perhaps the audience was in a altered state of consciousness...which is why it was easier for him (during the first half) to get away with such things as linking finger rings after telling the audience about magician's method(s) and using the same method. The hypnosis section...second part of the program... he did exactly what he said he was going to do...use suggestion. (Some of my magician pals went on stage and mentioned that he made encouraging remarks to them, not in the way you would a hypnotic subject, but the way you would a person who is cooperating with the ruse.) So, my analysis (at that time) was that in the first half he used "mass hynosis" to encourage acceptance of effects as "real" while he used merely suggestion in the hyposis section.

Bob
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