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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
I might take 45 minutes to get out of a pair of handcuffs...but it wouldn't be intentional! LOL
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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David Bilan Special user Clarksville, TN 714 Posts |
I notice there was a five year pause beteen posts. Still, my two cents:
Quality over quantity... As Whit points out, people's span of attention has shortened over the course of the past 100 years. Watch a film from the 1930's and compare it to the length of each individual shot in a film today. Can you do an entertaining routine with 20 rings? Certainly. But it's going to take a lot more work... and the question should be: why so many rings? "Because I can?" Perhaps it's "Rings out of control?" Now you might have a reason to have a handful of rings. Again, hust my two cents. Dave
Yes, I am a magician. No I did not make my hare (hair) disappear... it just took early retirement.
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Levent Special user USA 801 Posts |
Hi Whit:
I understand your point, that audiences had different tastes 100 years ago. Your statement is without question true. And I would add that it's not just 100 years ago! I can't imagine people in their 80s attending an Eminem concert or teenagers watching Lawrence Welk re-runs on TV. Tastes change constantly for example at one time the American TV viewer loved sitcoms. Today, they seem to love so-called "Reality Programs". Regarding the Chatauqua circuit. I believe that it is an entirely different animal from Vaudeville, where the norm was a bill of a dozen or more variety acts and musical performers, shown in rapid succession before an audience (who had seen it all and was always hungry for more). From what I understand, the Chatauqua was a mostly rural phenomenon in which the town folk would pool their money to run a Spring/Summer concert series in a tent. It was created as an entertainment for communities that did not have a population big enough to support a top flight vaudeville house. Also, although it was meant to be entertainment, the real motivation was for the education and enlightenment of the rural population. Therefore, a large part of the Chatauqua events were speaker/lecturers (such as famous authors or adventurers), classical music orchestras, etc. There were many magicians like Karl Germain who earned their livings in the Chatauqua circuit. But on balance the annual Chatauqua programs were really cultural events, with performers like magicians sprinkled throughout the season as a change of pace. Ironically, elements of the Chatauqua still exist today, but not in rural America, but in big cities that have "Performing Arts Centers". In New York City, practically every week there are 2 hour long lectures by speakers, authors and artists in places such as Lincoln Center and in the summer months they have variety acts such as a mime/juggling troupes for the weekend children's programs. Regarding Harry Houdini. I am sure that your are exaggerating about Houdini taking 45 minutes to get out of "a pair of handcuffs". But you do make a good point that at certain spots in his show he took a long time to do an escape and sometimes he did this on purpose for dramatic effect. That said, I think you are over simplifying the matter with regard to Houdini as he was not the typical entertainer of his era. Nor was his show (at its peak) a normal vaudeville show. The vast majority of Vaudeville was a fast paced show, with many acts that flew by at the blink of an eye. The downside was that if all you saw is a fast Vaudeville show, you could get bored with watching the same format, year after year. At the high of his fame Houdini was booked into Vaudeville theaters as the sole performer and this was a change of pace from the typical format. I am 1000 miles away from my home research library right now, but if my memory serves me correctly, in his last tour Houdini did a 2 hour long, three part show. The first part was 40 minutes of magic tricks which reportedly was just OK. The second 40 minutes was a spiritualist exposure show, which on its own must have been fascinating to the public as spiritualism was popular and it would have been like witnessing a TV exposure documentary of shady businessmen. The final 40 minutes of his show he did a series of escapes. I can't remember his whole program. but I figure if he only did 4 escapes, that would average about 10 minutes per escape. I think that is still not to long when you consider it takes time to introduce the bit, get the props examined by the committee and get into it an escape. Let's say it took him 20 minutes to get out of a milk can or water torture cell, such a performance could still be entertaining today if done correctly. For instance when I first saw Penn & Teller at the "Westside Arts Theater" in NYC (an off-Broadway venue) in 1985, I think they did well over 90 minutes of material. But the finale was Penn Gillette sitting on a stool and literally talking for 10 minutes about fire eaters and the nature of performing artists in general. Then he did simple fire eating which took about 30 seconds and then the show was over. If Mr. Gillette opening the show with that slow routine it would have been death, but by putting it at the end it was terrific. With these stories of Houdini and his long finale escape routines, I think it is best to look at it within the context of the overall show. Houdini is doing a full evening show, with magic, spiritualism and finally escapes. By the time he got to the grand finale escape, the audience grew to know and like the man and his talents. The long escape at the end was just a capper to the evening. Whenever I have seen an escape artist doing a big stunt in an outdoor venue, it has always taken a long time. But the audience stays and watches because they feel like they are part of an event. What Houdini did at his finale was to give people a feeling that they were witnessing an event and that waiting 20 minutes was not too long as they were a part of a real happening that could go wrong at any minute. Of course this was fabricated by Houdini, two shows a day, six days a week and that is why they paid him the big bucks. Now what did Houdini do when he had to share the bill with other Vaudeville acts? Well we know that for promotional reasons he worked a couple of weeks on a vaudeville bill at New York's Hippodrome Theater. At that show he only did the needle swallowing and the Vanishing Elephant. My guess is that the vaudeville audience would not put up with a slow escape trick on a bill that contained fast paced variety entertainment. When I was a kid I used to think that all Vaudeville acts were slow, old fashioned and boring. Later I came to realize that I had not seen real vaudeville performers but rather Hollywood movies with famous actors playing the part of vaudevillians. Then as I became a historian I had the opportunity to see film snippets of real vaudeville acts. I was totally blown away by their showmanship, energy and talent. For example: I am amazed at the film of Tenkai producing the lit cigarettes and tossing them ten feet across the stage as his wife Okunu catches them in a bowl or the blindingly fast Horace Goldin flying from trick to trick. As far as most of the verbal comedy performers of vaudeville, I am not too crazy about them as their humor doesn't resonate with me. But the musical performers and the variety acts back then were just as good and often better than most performers today. These were artists that honed their acts, by working up to 5 shows a day, 6 days a week for their entire lives. Great stuff! Which leads me to Billy Robinson AKA Chung Ling Soo. The fact is that in the year 1903, their was no television or radio or large scale cinema. The biggest form of mass entertainment on earth was vaudeville. Within the world of vaudeville, Chung Ling Soo was a big star. A main feature of his act was the "Linking Rings". Reporting on Chung Ling Soo's appearance at the Hippodrome Theater in November 1903, Ellis Stanyon writes, "The Chinese Linking Rings, worked in grand style and appreciated by the vast audience, if anything, better than any other trick in his programme..." In my previous post I said that I believe that the most commercially successful linking ring performer was Chung Ling Soo and at least at this point I do not see any evidence that contradicts my position. If you (Whit) or any other person on The Magic Café has a reason to believe that my above opinion is not a sound one, please post it as I am always interested hearing reasoned contrary opinions. Best regards to all, Levent http://www.LeventMagic.com P.S. Whit - I always loved your published ring routine and did a modified version of it at comedy clubs in the late 1980s.
Levent
www.LeventMagic.com |
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
My Father's vaudeville act was 5 minutes, billed as "A Fast Pace in a Small Space."
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Levent Special user USA 801 Posts |
Uncle Pete:
Please tell me your father's stage name and about the kind of act he did! Your Pal, Levent By the way, upon the urging of my fellow vaudeville historians, I recently purchased the Jazz Singer Deluxe 80th Anniversary 3 DVD set from Buy.com for $27, no tax and free shipping. The first disc is the movie "The Jazz Singer" starring Al Jolson, which I personally don't care for. The second disc is a series of documentaries on Warner Bros. and on the early technology of synchronized sound in motion pictures which is interesting. The third DVD is three and a half hours of vaudeville acts filmed in the mid 1920s at the Vitaphone soundstage in Queens, New York. There are no magic acts or variety acts on this disc as it is mostly musical acts and a few comedians. The fact that these were first class acts at their peak of their talents makes this DVD disc pure vaudeville gold. It is a great example of the stellar performers that regularly walked the footlights in New York's theaters before vaudeville began its terminal decline at the start of the great depression.
Levent
www.LeventMagic.com |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
I do not question that the rings were a highlight of Chung Ling Soo's show, or that his routine was wonderful. Just that it may not be the kind of routine that plays well in modern performing situations. I am sure that it is possible to do a long routine with many rings today, but that it would take quite a good routine and an excellent showman. I think that it is difficult to create a solid argument in the minds of the audience when too many rings are involved, and that it is easy for the audience to get lost and confused with so many rings. Confusion is not magic.
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Terry Owens Inner circle Ft. Wayne, Indiana 1707 Posts |
I think the rings are best when you have audience interaction on stage with you. That's why Whit's routine is so great, even when someone is using 8 rings, it still goes over great when you have an audience member or two involved.
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
Levent: My Father's act was billed as "Gaynor and Byron." Biro was not common and often misspelled so he went with Joe Byron, vs. Julius Biro.
He and his partner, Johnny Gaynor were roller skaters. And they invented the act skating on an elevated platform. It was four feet high and either 8x8 or 10x10 (I can't remember). They wore russian Cossack outfits. When they played the Palace in New York, they were the opening act for Ben Blue. I had the review in my files and gave a copy to fellow magician Tom Blue (Ben's son) who had never seen the review. The act was billed as "Gaynor and Byron -- a fast pace in a small space". They were considered, based on what I have read in his clippings, the best skating act of their time. My dad did one trick no one else had or has ever done. He could spin on just the 2 front wheels, a one-toe spin he called it, and do 100 revolutions. Think about that. He had an injury to the nerves in his hands and retired, marrying Erna Justesen, a member of The Six Lucky Girls, a dance group. Mom was a novelty dancer. AS you know, I did perform my magic act often on skates, and there is video of it somewhere taken on a TV Special I appeared on in Japan. Thanks for asking. Posted: Aug 24, 2009 12:08pm Levent: An added bit. My Dad's act worked for one year on the road with Olsen and Johnson's HELLZAPOPPIN' -- He really didn't like it because instead of doing their five minute act, they had to stick around and participate in gags and schtick during the show. And...my Dad was on the bill with the highest paid single act in vaudeville at the time, Frank Van Hoven, the Dippy Mad Magician. At the time Van Hoven was earning more than Houdini. Something like $10K a week, in the '20s. Unfortunately my Dad didn't remember much of what Van Hoven did because you finish your act and go back to the dressing room and unwind, shower, etc. Do you know Van Hoven's act contents?
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
Frank Van Hoven: "The man who made ice famous" this was the billing at least for some part of his career. he would run trade ads with that as the title. I think during the the zaniness he would have someone holding a huge block of melting ice as a running gag.
Vernon used to write about Frank Van Hoven all the time in his Genii Column. I can't recall all the nuances...it was over 30 years ago!
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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Levent Special user USA 801 Posts |
Hi Pete:
That's wonderful about your dad! I vaguely remember seeing a rollerskate act in the Lippert vaudeville films. Was your dad in those? When I get back home I'll see if the can find some more info on Van Hoven JNeal is right, Dai mentioned him several times in the Vernon touch column in Genii. I have the hardcover compilation of columns at home and will let you know what I find. Best regards, Levent http://www.LeventMagic.com
Levent
www.LeventMagic.com |
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Mac_Stone Inner circle Miami, FL 1420 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-08-24 11:19, Pete Biro wrote: Where is this video Pete? |
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bojanbarisic Elite user Croatia 462 Posts |
I am sure that David Ben wrote about Frank Van Hoven in Magic magazine last year, issue with Daniel Garcia on the cover ( I think it was in August)
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
Thanks, I saw the David Ben article. It filled most of the holes.
L-Man, I have gone through the Vernon column's book. Nothing solid. AFAIK my dad's act was NEVER filmed. He didn't think that if anyone saw it in a film they wouldn't want to come see him live. Sadly, he was wrong about that.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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gadfly3d Special user 963 Posts |
A friend of mine, who I have known since high school (a long time ago) just retired after 45 yrs of intensive full time performing. When he would come to me early on with an idea we would talk and I often would doubt it could ever work but often he would run with it and come up with a brilliant bit of business.
What I learned from him was that often ideas that seem wrong (like too many or too few rings) in the right hands can work. Gil Scott |
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