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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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MagicRabbit Regular user 176 Posts |
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On 2006-09-29 11:29, CaptainKid wrote: CaptainKid, why don't you read my post and see if that's what I said. Upon review your righteous self would find that I never hushed Ross, on the contrary he told someone else to "stop that". I guess your not as accurate this morning as yuou like to think of yourself. Quote:
So you think it is ok to use a flag in a simple magic trick to amuse children I think red blooded Americans who's love & passion involves the art of magic & the love of their country have every right to blend the two in a tasteful fashion. Were I a paintbrush artist & painted the flag, would you have the same whiny complaint? Quote:
If someone you knew died out of reverence to that flag, would you still hold this **** opinion? My friend, your "accurate" post is a house of cards. I'm semper fi Gulf War and have bled for the blue white & red. I give YOU the right to come on here and post innacurate crap. Quote:
the idea that to be patriotic you have to agree with the government . . . Now we're seeing the true nature of your innacurrate post. Your turning this into a political statement, not a statement on the art of magic. Quote:
I was “killing commies for your mommies” I find your comments FAR more beligerant and disrespectful than Ron's flag routine. One makes me proud of my country, the other does not. Quote:
Go ahead with the routine. I'm sure he was waiting on your permission. You think your something, don't you? Quote:
Ok, I woke up on the wrong side of the bed today, but at least I am accurate. Yes you did, and no, you weren't. |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
Another website that talks about retiring a flag, and that it could be buried, OR cut up and burned, DEPENDING upon your customs.
But I also agree that proper protocol seems to be not to let the flag touch the ground / floor in any way. - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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KC Cameron Inner circle Raleigh, North Carolina 1944 Posts |
Don, here in the US it is proper to burn it. Pretty funny since we almost passed a law against doing just that . . . shows how much Americans know about their own heritage. The link you sent was good, and as it states: “The flag code says ‘PREFERABLY by burning’”. This really isn’t the issue, I just stated it because so many people have no idea on how to respect the flag.
Regan, I am sorry about picking on your comment - and I did misunderstand it. Probably my mood influenced that. Sorry. It appears the minority have any idea of flag etiquette. I personally have a hard time believing the flag gets it's proper respect in a magic routine. What magician asks him/herself: is the flag folded correctly, is it displayed correctly, if it should be dropped, is it burned? It seems a lot of effort for a routine that could be much easier if the flag was not used. As as Ross suggested, a silk being red-white-blue-stars but not a flag seems a lot better. It seems that waving a flag is an "in" thing, and I believe many, if not most of the time, people want to appear patriotic as opposed to actually being patriotic. Why else have a magnet flag on your car getting dirty? Why else fly a flag but don't take it down at night? That is not any traditional way to respect the symbol of the US. I don't see using it in a magic routine is any different - unless great care is taken. Just displaying it - fine. Rabbit, I'm not going to argue with you, but I will discuss them with you. 1) The comment "kill a commie for your mommy" was a very popular statement when I served, which was probably before you were born - and is just that. It is not intended to be pro a republican or democrat. If you should read the question - it is about protocol, NOT MAGIC per say. The thread it political - well as how to respect the flag is political - not republican or democrat, but political. 2) Quote:
but don't tell another poster to stop posting their view. Need I say more? Did you not just tell Ross to stop posting a post to stop posting? Don’t you not see a little humor in this?? 3) Quote:
I think red blooded Americans who's love & passion involves the art of magic & the love of their country have every right to blend the two in a tasteful fashion. Were I a paintbrush artist & painted the flag, would you have the same whiny complaint? Rabbit, it is not a matter of what you (or I) think. It is a matter of protocol. 4) Quote:
I'm sure he was waiting on your permission. Hey Rabbit - RON ASKED if anyone found it disrespectful . . . Rabbit, I am happy to converse with you, but you need to make a little sense. I don't mind you disagreeing, but come on, the only thing you said of my post that was inaccurate was my comment about you hushing Ross. Just because you SAY you didn't doesn't mean you didn't . . . your original comment discredits itself. 5) Quote:
I'm semper fi Gulf War and have bled for the blue white & red. I give YOU the right to come on here and post inaccurate crap. Gee, thanks. Exactly what was inaccurate? - You never said! BTW it generally said as red, white, and blue. I assume you are stating you were a Marine in the Gulf. What did you do? Did you get a Purple Heart because you just mentioned bleeding . . . No disrespect for Marines AT ALL, but most I know would not say “the blue white & red” or say they bled, they would say they received a Purple Heart. Most would also have had drilled into them proper flag etiquette. Regan, Once again, I am sorry. |
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Alan Munro Inner circle Kentwood, Michigan, USA 5952 Posts |
I don't see a problem using the flag in the routine, as long as you're not performing in a mosque.
If you used a picture of Dubya, THEN you'd offend most people. lol |
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KC Cameron Inner circle Raleigh, North Carolina 1944 Posts |
*L* We elected "Dubya" and we got a second chance too. If we don't like it we can only blame ourselves. I personnally have no problem with him. He is exactly what he claimed to be. Please do not think any remarks I have made are pro or con the current administration.
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Regan Inner circle U.S.A. 5726 Posts |
Hey Captain, no need to apologize.
Regan
Mister Mystery
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MagicRabbit Regular user 176 Posts |
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Gee, thanks. Exactly what was inaccurate? - You never said! Good God your intelligent. Every counter-point I made was showing your inaccuracies. Quote:
BTW it generally said as red, white, and blue. Again your intelligence shines through. "I bled, for the blue white & red" is a common marine rhyming-quote used in many battalions. For your information I was 3/10 out of N.C. That's 3rd battalion, 10th marine in case you don't comprehend. Although I HAVE bled as a marine it was not during battle, so no, I do not own a purple heart and do not desire one. I suppose that makes me less an American in your eyes? You have every right to post here, as everyone else. It was Ross who tried squashing someone and you who defended him. I pointed out many falicies in your post this morning and I think YOU need to come down off the horse you rode in on, bub. God bless America & all the great magician's who respectfully display an American flag during in their art form. You guys have every right, even though SOME would try to stop your freedoms. rabbit |
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SleepingJag New user NC 35 Posts |
I think that CaptainKid does bring up at least a good point... while most of the spectators might not be offended you may just offend just one of the spectators. And since the purpose of magic is to entertain and not offend.
As a suggestion could you just use a red, white and blue silk? Those are the colors of the USA and everyone would reconize them as the hero of the story. That way no one is offended. While I stand by my orginal post I don't feel that we as magicians should risk offending even one person it might leave a bad taste of magic in there mouth.
Bethea Baker
The Price of Freedom isn't free |
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KC Cameron Inner circle Raleigh, North Carolina 1944 Posts |
Well Rabbit, at least you recognize that I am intelligent! *L*
I guess your more intelligent than many I have seen that wanted a Purple Heart, but you have to admit, you made it sound like a combat wound. You did avoid saying what you did in the Marines, but that, & your wound, really has no bearing on the conversation. As for being less American - I don't know how one could be less, or more, American. It is sort of like pregnancy, you either are or you are not. I was not a Marine, nor have I heard that line “bled, blue white and red”. I worked with Force Recon for a while, but it was a long time ago. I do not doubt you. I have yet to see ANY fallacies you pointed out, and I doubt I will. (Save the "bled blue white & Red" line - and that wasn't a fallacy - I have never heard it. You talk about fallacies, but don't list them. List them. The only “fallacy” you mentioned was about Ross. Remember, that was demonstratively true - and funny. Quote:
You guys have every right, even though SOME would try to stop your freedoms. Who is trying to stop anyone's freedom? Just a while ago, in your sarcastic way, you got on to me for "giving permission". Am I now trying to take some freedom away? You mention God a lot, I would appreciate it if you do not bring religion into this too - you don't strike me as terribly religious, so that shouldn't be too hard - ok? Once again, you claim to have a counter point for my remarks. The ONLY counter point was the irrelevant "Bled blue, white , red". You make a lot of claims, I ask you to back them up, I get . . . .nothing. I actually have a little debating in my background, and well, your not holding your end. Rabbit, I seriously doubt your Marine Corp would stand behind your comments. *****As I said before, it is not what you or I think is respectful - it is about protocol. ******* You should have learned that in the Marines - one of the most dictatorial parts of American. As you have demonstrated, your respect for the flag and the US knows no bounds. I have shown flags in magic to be against protocol, you have ranted & implied that I am not intelligent or somehow unpatriotic and a number of other unflattering things. Since you have not substantiated anything you have written so far, (other than the "blue white and red"), I assume it is because you really don't have anything. If I do not respond to your next post, you can assume I hold fast. This has gone on long enough, so go ahead and get in the last word. I am not going to have this become a flame war. I am not mad, or even dislike you , or think you are un-American, just uninformed and your understanding of debate seems a little shaky. Neither do I consider you a friend, and if this is how you treat your friends, I really don’t care to be one. This brings up the last point: I dislike it when someone calls me a friend when they most certainly are not. It is condescending and manipulative. Please do not do it again, we are not friends, nor do I ever see us being friends. I will be happy to keep it acquaintances. Outside of that, have a good weekend! |
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MagicRabbit Regular user 176 Posts |
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On 2006-09-29 16:16, CaptainKid wrote: I did NO such thing. Let's see...your wrong again, FRIEND. Quote:
You mention God a lot, I would appreciate it if you do not bring religion God, your intelligent friend. Quote:
Since you have not substantiated anything you have written so far, The U.S. Flag Code (title 4, United States Code, sections 5 to 10) does not have the force of law. You keep implying that anything Ron does in his act would be wrong, when you are UNDENIABLY incorrect... friend. Quote:
Outside of that, have a good weekend! You too friend! rabbit |
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JamesinLA Inner circle Los Angeles 3400 Posts |
The whole point is that you may very well find yourself performing in a mosque or for a very nice family that attends a mosque. They may have complex feelings about the flag--especially these days when most of the American public feels that our country is off track. In any case, what is your job? Is your job to entertain or is your job to spread a pro-american ajenda? The first rule if you are an entertainer is not to offend anyone. Not that the flag is offensive, but especially linking it with a gung ho, good guys/bad guys senerio could only engender in some people their complex and uncomfortable feeligns about our policies these days, which is the last thing you want to happen when everyone is supposed to be having a good time. Of course, you can take this to extremems because eventually someone is going to be offended by everything. I have to cut some of my best jokes in order not to offend sometimes.
Jim
Oh, my friend we're older but no wiser, for in our hearts the dreams are still the same...
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Danny Hustle Inner circle Boston, MA USA 2393 Posts |
It seems to me that just the mention of the routine has already offended some...
The waving of the flag in theater and entertainment goes very far back into history and is well documented. It was common to the point of becoming a gag during the days of vaudeville for an act that had a weak finish to force applause and sometimes a standing ovation by waving a giant flag and having the orchestra play stars and stripes. It was also often done to great comedic effect by placing tongue firmly in cheek. This type of wow finish gag was last seen by me just a few weeks ago on the television show "America's got talent" A fantastic corporate juggling outfit that calls themselves "The Passing Zone" did the classic vaudeville stars and bars wow finish with flagstaff productions no less. It got a GREAT reaction from the California studio audience as well as the judges and put the duo into the finals. In this day and age of self righteous, litigation happy, know everything, individuals, you are bound to offend somebody at some point even by just saying, "Hello!". Personally, I don't see a thing wrong with the routine and of the 25 million viewers that watched "Passing Zone" wave the flag on TV as part of their act not one of them called in to complain. If it were me I'd do it, and I wouldn't worry about it. Some people just like to be angry and have something to complain about. Best, Dan- "MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm ©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved. |
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KC Cameron Inner circle Raleigh, North Carolina 1944 Posts |
Danny:
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It was common to the point of becoming a gag during the days of vaudeville for an act that had a weak finish to force applause and sometimes a standing ovation by waving a giant flag and having the orchestra play stars and stripes. So flag waving patriotism is a historic way to save a bad show? Interesting. That would be reason enough for me not to do it. I don’t think the flag should be a gag - but maybe that is just me. Quote: I did not see this. If it got great reaction BECAUSE of the flag waving . . . well that says enough. I hope the rest of the act was great too. I am not sure how one could tell if any one complained or was offended.
It got a GREAT reaction from the California studio audience If it was my show, I would not advertise that I offended people . . . I assume some inside connection? Quote: Yes, it is bound to happen, but no need to encourage it.
In this day and age of self righteous, litigation happy, know everything, individuals, you are bound to offend somebody at some point even by just saying, "Hello!". Society today does not have the reverence it once had for anything. According to Rabbit, even the Marines do not revere the flag as when I was serving. While protocol has never been law, it is a matter of respect and tradition. How can you claim to respect something and ignore protocol and its tradition???? By using the flag you WILL offend two groups, the people who don't think the US is a super hero (most of the world, and a growing amount of Americans) and the ones that are really patriotic in the traditional sense. I do not see ANY flag routine being worth while because of that. Just because some vaudeville acts use to wave a flag - tongue in cheek (if I read Danny right), does not make it respectful. Just the opposite - vaudeville is not exactly known to be respectful. Will you offend many - probably not today, but I feel that says more about us than anything else. Would I personally would not be offended? No, but it takes a lot to do that . . . it just make me sad that we have forgotten so much. It is these attitudes that causes so many Americans to call themselves Canadian when overseas. It is even recommended to have a Canadian sticker on your luggage . . . they sell them at travel shops. I take that as a hint that we may have our collective head in the sand. |
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Josh the Superfluous Inner circle The man of 1881 Posts |
How about a burned and restored flag?
Have a good weekend!
What do you want in a site? "Honesty, integrity and decency." -Mike Doogan
"I hate it, I hate my ironic lovechild. I didn't even have anything to do with it" Josh #2 |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
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On 2006-09-29 18:10, Josh the Superfluous wrote: Penn and Teller do a fine prersentation of this trick
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Danny Hustle Inner circle Boston, MA USA 2393 Posts |
Has anyone but me noticed how Captain Kid makes up his own things to argue about?
I made several statements of fact and one personal opinion and he went out of his way to twist them into some kind of argument to suit his own venom. Some people just need to be angry I guess. I think somebody needs some therapy and a blankie. I hope someday you feel better about yourself Captain, then maybe you might play well with others and stop trying to prove to everyone how fabulously clever you are. It's really kind of sad...and more than a little pathetic. Have a nice day! Dan- "MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm ©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved. |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
What a thread.
I remember after 9/11 how a museum in the US was willing to have an entire area of their museum decorated with replica male genetalia but thought it was offensive to hoist the american flag. welcome to the only country in the world where raising their own flag is considered in bad taste. don't even get me started. Ron, I wish you well. I'd be glad to appear out of a cake in bra and panties and hold the flag for you if you do the gig in my area.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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Regan Inner circle U.S.A. 5726 Posts |
"Welcome to the only country in the world where raising their own flag is considered in bad taste."
Well said Frank. That is what I was meaning earlier, and it was misunderstood by CaptainKid. Isn't it sad that our country has come to this? Regan
Mister Mystery
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SeaDawg Special user The Lunatic Fringe 718 Posts |
Being a Die hard Canuck and darn proud of it I am remiss to weigh in on a subject of the US Flag.... But I know that national patriotism ans sentiments are strong and universal.
The old aaron Tippin lyrics " You got to stand for something or you will fall for anything .. " are ringing in my ears. Maybe not using the flag, but the tri- coloured silk may be more appropriate. But if the decision to use the "Flag" is made then it needs to be shown all the respect it can. Yes I am an ex-military man and I believe that one should stand for the national anthem, take of your hat, be nice to strangers and treat the elderly with respect and protect our children. The post nominal letters that I am entitled to use are SC, CD. For those who care to look'em up, I figure that it gives me the priveldge of a small rant in favour of patriotism. Besides if one doesn't like their country, there is nothing keeping ya... Move. My opinion and 50 cents wont get you a small coffee at a good coffee shop but hey, its my opinion and my 50 cents.,
Crazy people take the psycho-path thru the forest...
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