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Starrpower Inner circle 4070 Posts |
Assuming they'll be honest with you. The guy who wants to get you out of the way could say, "Yellow pages? Yeah. Great idea. Spend your entire year's advertising budget on it. Buy into all the books. Yeah, that's the ticket."
The only REAL way to find out is to do the ad buy and see if it works for YOU. Forget the other guy. |
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Al Angello Eternal Order Collegeville, Pa. USA 11045 Posts |
A yellow pages ad is a one year commitment in a small geographic area, which makes it a long expensive experiment, so if you are interested in doing some $100 parties in trailer parks the yellow pages is the place for you.
HAVE FUN Al Angello
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
http://www.juggleral.com http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/ "Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone" |
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Starrpower Inner circle 4070 Posts |
Actaully, you CAN bail out early in some instances ... but it usually means they'll change your phone number on you!
But there is a reason to be there, Al. If someone is looking for AL Agnello, and you're not in the book, how else might they find you? That's probably the best argument I can think of for being there. Otherwise, I pretty much agree with you. |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
Use Two Lines and Place one bolded line Mr. Luckey "Birthday Parties, Daycare & Preschools." 888-555-1234
Say it with The shortest amount of word. Ideally you want them to go to your website which has so much more information. Here is one I Designed to give you some idea of what looks good an what does not.: http://www.magic-magic.com/YellowPages.html Below are my notes on this topic: Yellow Pages, the Big Yellow Book, SuperPages, and any other name referring to the phone book, is one form of advertisment. Some companies and corporations do very well through the phone book. Auto Repair Shops, Construction Companies, etc., and individuals who can profit from a service that everyone NEEDS more than once in their life. Business is very competitive and exposure is critical for their survival. These individuals do well in the Yellow pages. As a matter of fact there is a science on how one goes about "Positioning" themselves amoung their competitors. Color ads draw more than balck and white, pictures make a difference, the size of the ad, the placement on the page or locatin in the section makes a difference, the headline, the amount of written text, a coupon, a discount, a guarantee, certification, licenced, etc. all make a difference to the consumer looking and reading that advertisement. A Yellow Page advertisement also gives the company and individual a sense of professionalism. The premise goes, if one can afford to advertise in the Yellow Pages, then they are ligimate and not part timers. This is important to Magician who want to be full-time working professionals. There is truth in the fact the bigger the ad, the more likely you are going to get called. Also a company which lists first AAAA Xzader Auto will get called more than Willy Auto Service because most people, once they find the headline, look at the ad, will call the first person and go down a list rather than going backwards alphabetically. Consumers will also price shop, calling several persons until they reach one which meets their spending budget. There is also subconscience beliefs related to the Yellow Pages, the bigger the ad, the more it will cost the consumer. Decisions are made by the consumer based on their financial status. This is also of concern for the magician. What is difference with a magician, as opposed to an automoble repair ad? Everybody doesn't need a magician, but because of the sheer number of cars, a consumer will need to repair his auto. Magicians are NOT in demand, and that is the determining fact which decisons related to yellow pages should be made. Business Phone Line Expense The phone company requires you to have a business line in your house or place of business to advertise in the yellow pages. A business line comes with an esculating monthly expense. Depending on the plan, you could be limited to the number of incoming and outgoing phone calls as well as time limits per call. Like cell phone, when you reach that limit specified in the selected plan, additional costs will occur. Yellow Page Block Ads Obviously, an ad is charged by the line, by the inch, by the size and by the boldness, as well as many other enhancements. Take a look at the ads in the all the yellow page directories where you want to be listed. The two areas worthy of placing an ad is under the heading "Entertainers" and "Magicians". Keep in mind that you will want to be listed in numerous books in your area, so the cost becomes a multiplication factor. A single line with a Bold heading is the very least one should do. It will stand above the others visually. 800 Number An 800 number can increase call outside the local calling area, and it is another monthy charge and per minute charge. It is about $5.00 a month and 20 cents a minute. Not bad for a potential client. See: http://www.magic-magic.com/YellowPages.html As a guide, your monthly cost for the ad should not exceed half the cost of one show. In other words, you must do six shows a year just to pay for the yellow page advertisement. Investment vs Ad Pulling Power When the decision is made to use the Yellow Pages as a means of advertisement keep in mind the yellow pages is not the most powerful means of advertisement. Direct Mail may pull more clients than a Yellow page ad. Your advertising cost should be used wisely and most efficiently. Magic as a Fundraiser This area requires a little more thought. Since a fundraiser Magic/Illusion show commands more money, the advertising cost can go up proportionately and the need to advertise in the "Fundraising" section is additional costs.
Track all calls from the Yellow Pages, and evaluate the results. There are four weekends a month and it will take at least one Birthday Party Show per month to pay for the monthly charge for a Yellow Page ad. Also it will take one show a month to pay for the Parent's Magazine add. that's 24 Birthday Parties out of 52 weekends a year. One must do more than two a weekend to make this type of advertisement cost effective. Note: Above Yellow Page ad is an example of choices and what they mean to the viewer.
Dennis Michael
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Al Angello Eternal Order Collegeville, Pa. USA 11045 Posts |
Starpower
Anyone who wants my phone number can just google me, and if you google me you will also find out many of the organizations that have posted my performance at their venue on their web site. The down side of someone googling you is they will also find out your arrest record. HAVE FUN Al Angello
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
http://www.juggleral.com http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/ "Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone" |
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NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-10-13 09:44, Starrpower wrote: That is is pretty cynical! If you are a nice, friendly guy who asks around you'll find people will be honest with you. |
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NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-10-13 11:08, Al Angello wrote: Very good point! It is quite a commitment Quote:
In YOUR area. (Collegeville, Pa. USA). In my area, 80% of people who call book. Me 20% are price shoppers and people who can not afford me. But both of these examples are useless unless you do some research and a) ask other magicians and entertainers b) ask the yellow pages c) LOOK at the yellow pages d) place an ad. |
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mghia Veteran user Kymystical 387 Posts |
This is just not ture Al. MOST people in America do not own a computer let alone use one to search for entertainment. AND just because on has a computer does not mean they have net service!
The ratios are changing but by far the non computer users out number the computer users. Income has nothing to do with who looks in the yellow pages. EvenDondald Trump will try to low ball you and usually the richer they are the better deal they want. That is why they have money, silly. Quote:
On 2006-10-05 11:37, Al Angello wrote: |
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Starrpower Inner circle 4070 Posts |
Have you guys ever really tried a general entertainment search, as if you were looking for a children's performer? I have ... and it's not easy. First off, you get a TON of performers from all over the country (world?) Very few even indicate where they are -- not a city, state, etc. Some goofballs must put every state in the union into their keywords, 'cause I get guys from California showing up when I run a search for Florida. Then you get all the local agencies, Partypop, and so on. Then you get people who are SUPPLIERS to children's events (costume and party rental shops), party planners, and places to HAVE parties (like Chuck E. Cheese.)
No, it's not really that easy to find an entertainer via a web search, Al. I don't advertise in the Yellow Pages, but if I did it would be for the reason I gave earlier -- so I could be found when someone was looking for ME, specifically. |
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mghia Veteran user Kymystical 387 Posts |
How will they know your web site if you do not adverstise it? The gut reaction of 90% of normal folk is to ask a friend and then look in the book. It is habit.
Yeah I love all this net web site stuff. I can go and see what my competitor is offering and even get prices without even calling him. Too easy.... Quote:
On 2006-10-05 16:24, jolly roger wrote: |
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mghia Veteran user Kymystical 387 Posts |
Boy some are trying to make things black and white and it is not. there are so many things that are not true in my area.
1.You can pay more just just the two lines than taking them up on promo rates. Always as if they have any dicount rates for taking a larger ad. They do this to let you try a new size and see if it works. If it does not, than you can go back smaller. Cost per space you spend more than you think for two lines in the books up in North NJ 2.The auto shop senario is true but your assement of why it will not work for magic is false! You have it backwards my friend. You see in Newspaper ads you waste your money since on that day, someone might not be looking for a magician. But at any given day,EVERYDAY OR NIGHT they can open the yellow pages and find your name.They find it when they are ready to find it. If you do not do this YP and your market is not the type the uses DM or agents, than you are not being seen. That is why you still take the two lines. If your theory was true you would drop the books all together. 3. WHere I live I am NOT required to have a businsess phone line to adverstise. First off I only have a cell and do everything with it so am not required. Yes I was required when I had a line,HOWEVER I also adverstise in books that did not service my area with phone so was not required to have a businsess line. So in my case, I do not have a business line and adverstise in the books. I picked my calling plan based on my yearly use of a land line. In the end I was would pay less for more features by moving to cell plus I take my number with me and do not have to change it if I move one town over. There are many other tricks to save on minutes if you are getting low but is beyond the scope of this post. 4. You suggest the cost of the ad should not be more than 1/2 the price of your show. That is a bit low and shows you might be fearful that you will not get work. I say a better and more realistic is not to spend more than one show. Honestly I have been in the books for years and need them. I have some ads that run me $150 for both headings in the one book. I track my ads and see that I get far more shows than the price of one short show and feel that is worth the larger ad. I might spend $60 for only 4 lines under two headings and would loose more with that smaller line listing than the box ad. Yes you do need to check from time to time if an ad is working. Like I just dropped a book that at one time was strong but in the end, did not pull enough shows to leave much profit (based on how many shows from that region actually called) Direct mail is only stronger if you target your market with a product they want. $.39 for the first mailing can add up and this does not include your paper and printing cost. Rick Allen would tell you that most Daycares toss unsolicited material and to do direct phone first. Say you print up a color flyer that costs you .50 So the mailing is $.89 not $.39. Don't forget your time should be added in to find the names and are you self addressing or adding in inpersonal sticker. Add in the cost for that if you use a label. Did you buy the list? If so add in the cost of the list. How many of these $.89 mailings do you send out? 25? 50? Did you know that in the Direct Marketing WORLD a successful response rate is 1%? If that is statistically the market, then you have to do as Denis did with the yellow pages and figure in that you might only get 1% response from your DM than you still need 1 show from that mailing to cover your cost if you sent out 50 or less flyers. (Based on a daycare priced mailing) Yes DM can pay off if all costs have been added in. If you are doing bulk rate you have to mail 200 pieces pay $300 the first year for registration and permit and then your rate is still $.29 or something like that. Then you have to pay $150 per year to renew and remember, can only get the rate if you mail 200 pieces at a time min. So since you like math lets say you get a rate of $.24 (I think it is higher) for 200 pieces. That is $45 for that mailing. But do not forget to add in $300 if you are a new customer and if renewing you have to add in the $150. How that gets divided up is based on how many of these 200 piece mailings you will do per year. Lets also assume you are not established so when people get this strange letter from you they do not know you from Adam. Ask yourself, will they even look at it with all the other junk in their box? MAYBE Don't forget add in the cost of an envelope.$.03 Ok so maybe you are cheap and do nt use an envelope but you still need to add in the flyer paper. How much did you spend on that? cheapy $.05 or glossy for color and go $.30. Then there is the cost of ink and your drive time if you went to a printer and the cost of time/ gas to buy the paper and to bring the mailing to the post. What is your time worth? $10 per hour?$175 per hour? $250? Take your per hour worth and divide that up to how much time you spent on CREATING assembling, labeling and mailing. With YP once you place the ad you are not spending your time each month on a mailing or ad. See? Figure in your time to be truely sure DM is saving you as much as you think. Dennis I am not picking on you and this is just in the fun spirit of debate. If you are being HONEST with yourself and not just slamming yellow page ads, than you have to figure this in as well. Y If you print up flyers yourself, you would also have to add in the cost of your printer, wear and tear on it and the cost consumables and the costof electric to run it. You see guys and gals, sometimes we fool ourself into believing something is less expensive but unless you have adding in ALL the components you really do not know how much less, if at all, it is. You are right about the tracking and the time it takes to pay for one show. Well sort of. That is, do not wait a month to know if your ad paid. Honestly if you are only getting one show a month consistantly, you have other problems. It could be your ad and how it is selling or it could be that you are not a good performer and word got around. Plus shows book in advance. So you really have to base things at the end of a year or at most every quarter NOT monthly. Hey but whatever works for you do it! Quote:
On 2006-10-14 16:03, Dennis Michael wrote: |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
Mark Ghia,
Your post is worthy of reading. And I am not slamming yellow pages. There are many more factors to consider then mentioned here. The only way to really get the correct information is to try it for a year. Exactly what, well that's up to you. In my local area, there are seven counties, each with thier own phone books and the competitors yellow phone book. I get plenty from the parent's mag, that I choose not to invest and kill myself and turn down shows I can't do. Pick an area, pick one phone book and try it. Two lines in the Magician section for birthday parties or place schools shows in both places, Magicians and Entertainers- Children and Families. Dennis
Dennis Michael
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mghia Veteran user Kymystical 387 Posts |
Just giving the heads up, Dennis Michael Dowhy, to others who might believe your post is rock solid for a wider area.
There is one book in my county and 3 books in the other areas where I WANT TO TRAVEL TO. No one said you have to put in ad in all of your books if you do not travel to them.... And I stay away from the "YELLOW BOOK" since people do not trust it here and they give me a free listing every year anyway with no response. The point is, you made some strong statements that were not true in my area so I had to ring in. I am not sure why investing= "killing yourself" and do not understand why you need to turn down work. That means your ads are working! If you are a part timer then yes, do not advertise at all in the books. Or you should network with friends since will not be working all the time and could use a show they can't do and vise versa. I do agree with you that one needs to find out for themselves and in different areas these ads work great. That is why I gave my experience. This is the same with Parent Papers. Someone said do not advertise if no one else is in it and that is HOG WASH. I say that is YOUR BEST response rate. I will not go into the papers with 15 magicians advertised unless I have a special show. I also try to target the PARTY ISSUE since parents have a higher return rate. I advertise in one and pay $100 per month since I get the response. Funny how people did not recommend these papers since my return as well paid for the cost since it is TARGET AUDIENCE. It's MUCH like your direct mailing. And finally I pointed out the MANY other FACTORS you did not point out about the TRUE COST of DM. The funny thing is that in Marketing 101 they teach that when things are slow and budgets are tight, your advertising should not be the first thing you scale down or cut. Most do but then the customer can not find you. Dennis Michael, if you really only do daycares and schools, then I would agree not to advertise in the books with anything more than a listing. It is true that schools and PTAs do not look in the book 99% of the time in my area. They get enough DM not to need to crack the book open. They also stick with someone who does well. That is the real reason they do not use the book or parent papers that much. However if you are in a different market, you still should have a listing with second line in the book UNLESS they are like Dennis and have enough work that he has to turn down (just busing your chops- you fellow Jersey boy). There is no need to advertise at all if you have to turn down work from those ads every month. Good for you! Quote:
On 2006-10-15 22:07, Dennis Michael wrote: |
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Al Angello Eternal Order Collegeville, Pa. USA 11045 Posts |
I have been performing for over 20 years, and in those 20 years I have tried local news papers, Yellow Pages, Yellow Book, 3 different childrens magazines, one local entertainment magazine, several bulletin boards, Philadelphia magazine, Montgomery County magazine, the Sunday paper, cable TV, and the internet, and in my humble opinion the best advise on this topic is presented by Dennis Michael, and those who disagree with him are just being stubborn. Try sky writing if you want, and after that fails go back and take Dennis's sound advise.
HAVE FUN Al Angello
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
http://www.juggleral.com http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/ "Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone" |
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mghia Veteran user Kymystical 387 Posts |
I wonder if Al gave the papers and such a running chance.
First let me tell you Al that you are right, Newspaper ads do not work well nor do Sunday papers nor do cable TV if you do not have the right ad AT THE RIGHT TIME! REPETITION is the only way to get any advertising to work and thus why the yellow pages work for many. You are there when they need you. Family papers work great for me since I am one of the only magicians have a large ad and am in there every month. If Al only tried to advertise in the media for only one or two times, well of course they will not pay off. Look, COKE has to do it and so do you. Magicians are not above how the average mind works. People need to see things OVER AND OVER AND OVER before you have brand recognition. I am sorry it did not work for YOU. But that does not mean it will not work for others IN YOUR MARKET. Saying that someone is stubborn is well stubborn. I know someone who has put her clown in a shopper for 10 years and it must work for her because people see her there every week. The Parent papers give more value for the buck since your ad is saved for up to a month. Newspapers and TV are only there for the time and space your reserve. You have no idea if you will hit your target unless you go months at a time. So it does not work for you. Could it be the quality of material in the ad? Just taking an ad is not the end all to getting work. It has to pull them in and get them to call. 1. Identify or target market 2. Market your show to that market in the place that market looks the most when planning a party or event. I never said Dennis was 100% wrong but just that some of his general statements were not true for everyone one in other areas. Quote:
On 2006-10-16 10:41, Al Angello wrote: |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
I, too, have had success with advertising in the classified ads. I haven't done it for a few years now. But, with a consistent weekly ad in a local weekly newspaper, I had birthday bookings. Cost for a year was about $700, and I easily generated $1500 per year (or more) in bookings.
At that time, I wasn't tracking sources of my income as closely as I am now. I knew what was working, but not necessarily the exact dollar figure. Now that I do track, I can tell myself the number of birthday shows I did last year (comparted to others), and also how much I earned from them (overall, and a per show average). I can also tell myself which inquiries / bookings came from which sources. - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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RobWestcottMagic New user 23 Posts |
My area didn't require a separate business line to list in the yellow pages - a cell phone number sufficed. Another benefit listing in the local Verizon Yellow Pages is a listing in the on-line Super Pages. I've gotten shows because folks found me from that on-line source.
I track where my shows come from, and the yellow pages have been a good, not great, investment. Your mileage may vary. Thanks! |
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