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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Histed Heisted (2 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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JanForster
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Hi Noobini, you are right, you've to do some fishing to create the impression you get problems to read the spectator's mind (presentation) and same time to know secretly what card he is thinking of (method). That puts you in condition to hand out the envelope very early in your routine. Of course you've to omit the called out cards later in your following calls. Try to see it with your audience's eyes. Your fishing can be very vague, of course depending from your stack, e.g. using the Aronson Stack: #3-#13: "you think of a black card"; answer "no": "I knew I will have problems...", answer "yes": "But I can't go any further, I knew..." #23-#33: "I see a number...", #43-#52 "I see a number...". I think you get the idea when you play with it. I can assure you that it is working extremely well. Jan
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landmark
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Hey Noobini--

I think you're giving up too easily Smile Histed Heisted is not something someone who has not had a lot of experience performing should be getting upset about. It's a great effect, but requires A LOT of performing confidence to pull off.

Like you say, start off by performing some close-up with friends. If you're an Aronson fan, you can't go wrong with Shuffle-Bored. Start where you need to start.

Take it easy, but take it,
Best
Jack Shalom
The Amazing Noobini
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I see, Jan. That is an original approach. I have to give it some further thought. Thanks!

Jack, the problem is that I don't have especial difficulties with Histed because it is complicated. My nerves give me the same amount of trouble if I need to ask someone in the street for directions. It matters not how easy the magic effect is.

People like me don't become performers. They live in homemade cabins in the mountains. It is a problem with the wiring. But even more practice should yield a better ability to do an effect without having to think what the next step is. But it will still be a mumbling shaking weirdo standing in front of them.

Nevertheless, I will not give up learning and practicing at least. Thank you for the supportive words!
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
Dennis Loomis
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To Noobini,
I really feel for you. I wish there was something we could do to help. You seem so down on yourself right now.

Magic is a wonderful hobby and many are involved in it that don't perform. If you don't feel you're up to that... then don't force yourself. There is much to learn and it's fun working through effects. It's fun reading the books and watching the DVD's. You can do research, write, and many other things if you love the art. Which you obviously do.

Don't pressure yourself. Relax and enjoy life generally and embrace the goddess of magic in whatever ways you desire. She will still reward you with many good times.

Dennis Loomis
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neoepicurus
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I definitely think HH is one of the strongest effects I know, so I'm glad there is a thread on this. Despite the strength, though, the whole need to read off cards is a slight, if I may say so, weakness for the routine.
In the two times I've done it, which both nevertheless went VERY well, I used a somewhat weak justification by saying, "Now, I'll read your minds one by one. But to do it in a fair order for all of the people that have thought of a card, I'll read off the cards that I've collected in sets of ten, and, if you hear your thought-of card named, please come up."

I'm curious, what good justifications have you come up with to explain why you read off the sets of cards and have spectators come up accordingly?
Hideo Kato
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I think that is the intrinsic weaknes in HH.
I would rather show 5 cards by 5 cards.
I show 5 cards and ask spectator to stare his selection and send telepathy to me. That is the good reason to show cards.

Hideo Kato
The Amazing Noobini
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Thank you for the supportive words, Loomis! I was very moved by what you wrote and have left the browser window for this thread open for days not knowing what to write back. (And also feeling reluctant to keep sidetracking this thread into my own personal therapy session). I have gotten so much help, support and ideas in these forums that it's hard to even believe. It's very magical. I will not give up.

I agree that the reading off of cards is the most vulnerable part of the act. That is where the effect has to be sold by a convincing magician. This is also why I think a larger number of participants will make the effect more convincing since they don't recognize their announced cards in the order in which they are seated or the order in which they received the cards to begin with. That will throw them off, I think. There is no pattern to pick up on.

Kato-San's suggested presentation sounds like a stronger illusion of mind reading, but if I understand it correctly, this method would either:

A. Require each spectator to get the exact same cards as before all over again. If this is a connection between one person and the magician, then someone else cannot call in and say "hey, one of those were my card". So if I understand the five cards have to be the one person's five cards. Someone would surely recognize their old cards? Also there would possibly need to be a deck switch since finding each person's cards again in the shuffled deck would be cumbersome. There is no incentive to pick out certain selected card since the deck is now shuffled. Or it would seem that you know which cards to selectively pull out.

B. Require a smaller number of spectators around a table. It would take a bit long to go through eight groups of five cards and spend a good deal of time on each. If the effect of each round is the same then the only thing that makes a session with many people not seem repetitive is the back and forth between the different participants. If all cards are displayed in front of the magician in the same manner, it appears more repetitive I fear.

I would love to hear the mechanics of a five card version like this. As you can see from my fumbling thinking out loud above, I don't really understand how it could work.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
Hideo Kato
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The Amazing Noobini-san, I believe you will like 5 cards version if you learned the method. I am writing the proceedure.

1. You hand 5 cards to 5 spectators.
2. After spectators selects a card in his mind, all cards are gathered and shuffled by a spectator.

(Here, I have my idea not to use packet switch. This idea will be explained in my thread "Today's Finding" shortly).

3. You show 5 cards. If someone find his card in them, he stares his card and try to send telepathy to you. And you guess it.

4. You show next 5 cards and continue till you guess all cards.

Of course there can be cases more than one spectator find his card in one packet. It is not unnaturl as cards are shuffled.

Hideo Kato
The Amazing Noobini
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Intriguing... this sounds like a version so different that it could clearly be named as a new effect. I'm reading your daily thread now with great interest.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
Dennis Loomis
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No spectators are going to get any information from the order of the cards that are read off. Most lay people have a hard enough time remembering a single card. If they could remember all five cards they had in their hand, then possibly they could notice that "their" cards are always read off as the third card in each group, etc. They have no reason to remember the other 4 cards.

Simon's original patter is all the excuse you need. If you want to worry about something, worry about your acting skills. When you read the cards, it must be convincing that you are calling the cards in order from the shuffled deck. If you can't do that... well then someone might get some little clue. Even then, I don't think they will be able to figure out how you do it.

I also don't think it's a good idea to have the spectators "come up." You gain nothing, but it will take up a lot of time. If you are pretending to read their mind, that should have nothing to do with their looking at any more cards again.

Simon's Original is a GREAT trick, and I don't see any weakness.

What you are suggesting is simply not a version of Histed Heisted. It's a variation of the Princess Card Trick.

Best to all my friends on the Café.

Dennis Loomis
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Bill Hallahan
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I like the idea Dennis Loomis has where the prediction is visible in advance. Annemann (Grant?) published an old idea using an envelope mounted on the backdrop. That idea will work well too. A jumbo card can be removed from the envelope to end the routine. If I can get that together in time for my next performance, that's what I'll be using.

That approach, however, requires an assistant. Fortunately, I work with a group of magicians, so we can help each other. Of course, apparatus could replace the assistant, but that's more involved than I want, or need, to get. Rather than that, I would do exactly what Dennis Loomis advises on his site.

Thank you Dennis Loomis and Nick Pudar for the help you've given me regarding Histed Heisted. The information on both of your sites is great.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch"
StuartNolan
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The Amazing Noobini,

I too am building up to my first performance of Histed Heisted in a few weeks time and have the jelly-nerves thinking about it. I thought I'd share one thing I've been doing as part of my practice that I hope will help me.

Although I've performed effects with a memdeck before (I particularly like R Paul Wilson's Martini) I haven't before performed an effect where I have to miscall a card and, as has been pointed out in this thread by infinitely more experienced magi than myself, the acting is very important.

I realized that I needed a simpler effect that I could perform for small groups that would let me practice this aspect. And an effect that does not use a memdeck to keep the practice separate. For me this has been Eddie Fields' Way Way Ahead Card to Card Case - a wonderful effect and I get great reactions. Very different to Histed Heisted of course but it has helped me feel like I can get in the right zone of deceit.

good luck with it

s
"One should always be a little improbable." - Oscar Wilde
Dennis Loomis
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To Bill Hallahan,
The idea of having a prediction in an envelope belongs to Simon Aronson. In his version the prediction envelope is removed from the performers pockets. I came up with a method so that the prediction envelope can be in full view before the effect begins. My version uses a "special" card which you can get from me if you're interested. As Simon pointed out to me, there are other ways you can have the prediction in view from the beginning.

Dennis Loomis
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Bill Hallahan
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Thanks Dennis, I learned Histed Heisted from Simon Aronson's book, Bound to Please, so I do know that Dave Solomon told Simon Aronson that Histed's routine needed a kicker, and Simon Aronson came up with the prediction.

I do like your idea a lot. I might have always done it the way Simon Aronson wrote had I not read the article at your site about this.

Based on Aronson's comments in the book, I traced the roots of Histed Heisted back to "The Miracle Divination" from Louis Histed's book, The Magic of Louis Histed, which then lead me to the first version of Al Baker's routine "Vocalepathy," which was a marketed manuscript, but thankfully is reproduced in the book The Secret Ways of Al Baker. In my research I also found Paul Fox's routine, and it occurred to me that the same principle is used in Alex Elmsley's routine, "Cross 25". There is one other trick that I found that uses the same principle, although I hesitate to mention it here because it is so well known, it could expose too much about the method to "The Miracle Divination."

In my opinion, none of those other routines are as good as Simon Aronson's routine, which, of course, is really just the prediction added to "The Miracle Divination" done with the Aronson stack, and also using more participants. The big breakthrough was by Histed, who was the first to use a memorized deck along with the principle Al Baker used in Vocalepathy.

By the way, I don't mean to take anything away from Simon Aronson; even he writes that he was just taking Histed's routine and adding to it, thus the name. By the way, I think that because this topic is hosted by the Magic Café, the topic should be titled, "Histed Heisted Hosted". Smile

Simon Aronson has created several other routines that I would described as "extremely brilliant," and, in my opinion, even more brilliant than Histed's "Miracle Divination," or any of the forerunners that might exist. However, Histed Heisted will play great to a crowd.

It also provides plenty of opportunity for bits of business. I should also thank Richard Osterlind, who recently gave me permission to use one idea on one of his Mind Mystery DVDs. I haven't used it yet, but it fits perfectly into Histed Heisted, and it should create a funny moment.

If anyone knows of any other routines that use the same principle, please let me know. I'm sure my current research is incomplete.

Update:

In another topic in Secret Sessions, Hideo Kato pointed out that the routine, "To Guess Four Cards Thought Of by Different Persons" in Modern Magic uses the same method as Histed Heisted. Modern Magic was written in 1876, so it precedes Al Baker's Vocalepathy.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch"
Magicmike1949
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This is an excellent thread that needs reviving. This is a great trick and I have used it to get an entire crowd involved. I recently did it at a large gathering with people seated at tables of about 8 each. I got to the venue early and had cards for the prediction phase planted at the table. One under the centerpiece, one under a chair, etc. Worked well in that case. I fully remember the nervousness I felt when starting to perform this effect. I still get it even after doing it for years. Frankly I think it might add to the effect when spectators sense the difficulty I'm having. You might consider a joker crib sheet if you worry about going blank, or in the right setting a deck switch is certainly possible. As Mike Close and others have often pointed out, venue determines a lot about what you should perform and what you can get away with. Dennis and Nick have excellent thoughts on this great effect as they do on many memorized deck tricks. We are lucky to have their wise counsel.
JanForster
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Try this what I sometimes do: Let the cards collect by a spectator, take him with you, switch the deck to your stacked and memorized deck and do then the calling. No miscalls necessary. The spectator can even look over your shoulder. At the end give him the deck as present. And: Use 5 spectators, each is getting 10 (!) cards, sp.# 1 and # 2 11 cards. Order: sp. #1 gets stack # 1,6,11,16,21,26 a.s.o.up to 51,
sp.# 2 gets 2,7,12,17, a.s.o. All in 5 steps, think you get the idea. Your calls: 1st stack # 1-10, 2nd stack # 11-20, 3rd stack # 21-30, 4th (if necessary) stack # 31-40.
Of course you've to do a little fishing to get the correct card as there are always 2 possibilities. I think that doesn't matter, after all we talk about mind reading. The advantage: the entire deck is distributed, each spectator has a "full hand" of cards.
Jan
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Jan Forster
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Dennis Loomis
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To Jan,
I like the idea of the deck switch. This makes it a lot easier for those that are less practiced with the stack. They don't have to call the cards in order, they use the actual deck in their hand.

What deck switch do you use? I was thinking, you could have a couple of chairs on the stage for you and the spectator to sit in when you get to the stage. You can have one of the old deck switching servantes on the back of one of the chair which you slide into position for the spectator to sit in.

Dennis Loomis
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JanForster
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Dennis, oh, I'm sometimes pretty bold: as I mentioned, the spectator collecting the cards gets them as a gift. So when he is on stage I tell him that, taking the cards from him and putting them in the box. Asking him for his name I announce that I will write it on the box and sign it "For xy from Jan...". Holding the deck in my left hand I reach with my right hand into my left inner jacket pocket opening that side of my jacket as I pull out a pen. That covers completely my left hand that switches same time the deck in my outer left hand jacket pocket... Believe me, it is absolutely undetectable as there is no heat on it. Everything seems to be over concerning the deck. I let even the spectator pocketing "his" deck. Then after a while as an afterthought, "let's try to read their minds in whatever order the cards happen to fall after all your shuffling...." (Simon Aronson)I ask the spectator if he could loan me his deck... That's it. I think I forgot to mention above that I call the cards in groups of 10.
By the way, Dennis, I visit your page about the MD quite frequently. My big compliments as you gave me some good inspirations. I specially liked your approach to OOTW and Milt Kort's/Ron Bauer's 8 Outs Routine which I reworked to avoid any "monky business" under the table or behind the back. Everything happens in the open while shuffling and cutting, then the 3H appears face-up in the middle of the deck. From then on I follow the usual procedure. And of course the order is maintained. Jan
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Nick Pudar
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Jan,
That is a very nice and practical deck switch. I really like the way you "borrow back" the deck. When I first learned Histed Heisted, I did experiment with a deck switch, as I was quite nervous about miscalling the cards correctly. As I have written in the past, I even resorted to a "cheat sheet".

However, when I did play with a switched deck, I made sure that the groups of ten cards (1-10, 11-20, 21-30, etc.) were each randomly shuffled in their own groups. In other words, cards 1-10 were shuffled together, and so on. This comforted me knowing that an astute observer would not observe the relative positions of the cards and the spectators being the same. (Of course, that is mispaced paranoia -- in over a hundred performances of this routine, only one person -- a PhD Mathematician -- was close in figuring it out, but the prediction finish floored him.)

Jan, what kind of "fishing" questions do you use?

Nick
Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up.
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JanForster
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Nick, it is easy as I've to fish only between 2 cards. So I use whatever is possible or comes to my mind. It's a bit like jazzing what I like. I.E. number-court/picture, odd-even, high-low, shapes of index/pips, even red or black, or a specific suite. If possible I try always to ignore any sort of no-answer, interpretating it differently. I.E. 7H and KH: I see a number (answer or sort of... "no"), yes it looks like a "4", but it is a "K", or: I see red (answer "no"), oh yes you were thinking of the back, but your card is...! I think Simon Aronson's "Simon Eyes" gives you enough inspirations.
For the final prediction inside the envelope I prefer a "no" as I've written on the envelopes "I knew that I will have problems with you!". Sounds like a minor gag which produces always some laughs. I let the spectator sit on it. At the very
end I come back to him. If I get a "yes" I will say I see blank, can't go any further...
Nick, I use your "StackView" and visit your "musings" once a while. My compliments! Best, Jan
Jan Forster
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