The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workshop » » Did they use stenciling for this? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Ron Reid
View Profile
Inner circle
Phoenix, Arizona
2733 Posts

Profile of Ron Reid
Hello:

Can someone tell me - are these designs done by stenciling?

http://www.ronallesimagic.com/viewproduct.php?id=4284

I have Matt Ruentz' book on stenciling, but am not quite sure on some of the materials used. Concerning the stencil, is it adhesive to prevent paint from getting under it, resulting in overspray?

Any help will be appreciated. I love the look of these, but am unsure how to tackle this.

Ron
gsidhe
View Profile
Inner circle
Michigan
1726 Posts

Profile of gsidhe
Those are definately stenciled and airbrushed, and if you look really close at the first one, you can see some overspray on the lighter colors.
I never use an adhesive stencil as I find it really unneccesary. Just spray from a distance and straight down, never at an angle, and it should be fine (But make sure to mask off anything outside your stencil. That would get heavily oversprayed.)
Gwyd
Michael Baker
View Profile
Eternal Order
Near a river in the Midwest
11157 Posts

Profile of Michael Baker
I recently worked on restoration of a Hamilton piece. Check the link and scroll down to see it.

http://themagiccompany.com/cat_custom.html

I only dealt with some structural matters and a few paint touchups, but did not do any stencil work. However, this was fabulous work on this piece. There was not the slightest amount of overspray.

It appears as if there were several different stencils, all made from identical images, but with different areas cut away.

I have not had perfect luck with stencils. Adhesive stencils can often chemically effect the paint layers below them. Bad news when they do. I tried using a temporary adhesive spray mount, but the results were bad. The solvents affected the paint and caused previous layers to peel up.

Stencils with large voids are easier to work with, as you can put tiny weights near the edges to hold them down. Small intricate designs are very difficult. The slightest warping of the stencil will allow paint to drift under.

I have some frisket film here (slightly adhesive), but am not really sure the best way to use it... especially if I would care to preserve the stencil and use it for multiple items. It is extremely thin and delicate, and it appears that it must be applied to the item first and then the areas cut away after that. Intricate designs disintigrate if I try to move the film after cutting it.

I could use some help, too.

~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company
RiserMagic
View Profile
Veteran user
361 Posts

Profile of RiserMagic
I will often make stencils from heavy acetate sheet - cutting the designs with a stencil burner. Some projects were actually made with a 1/16" thick plexiglass set of stencils for durability and no overspray. If you lay the wooden sheet on a sheet of sheet metal (steel), neo magnets may be used to hold the stencils in position.

On other projects I have even cut the stencils from 1/16" thick sheet steel using my plasma cutter. The surfaces of these stencils were then ground smooth using either an angle grinder with a flap wheel or on my surface grinder for very small precision jobs. The weight of these stencils holds them in position tight against the flat wood being painted. For curved items like cans or cones, a metal or fiberglass stencil is great. Fiberglass also works great on things like doll faces (complex shapes). Using the methods utilized by toy makers in high production manufacturing facilities speeds up things and adds to the quality of the end product.

Some jobs I have made were done with scroll saw cut tempered hardboard stencils (these are not extremely durable).

No flex in the stencils and weight will eliminate over spray problems. Using cardboard or file folder type stencils is asking for trouble. I always use a double action air brush.

Frisket is great for one off jobs. Cut it with a stencil burner or sharp exacto type knife. There are specially made very fine blades for such work. Check art supply sources for options.

BTW - some of the Hamilton work on selected items was silk screen work.
Jim
Ron Reid
View Profile
Inner circle
Phoenix, Arizona
2733 Posts

Profile of Ron Reid
Thanks Gwyd, Michael, and Jim. All very helpful information. I would have guessed the items on Michael's site were done with Waterslip decals - they are gorgeous items!

I did find a guy on ebay who sells stencils. He had some made of brass - the stencils were Chinese Characters and Dragons, and looked pretty good. They were pretty simple, allowing for only one spray and color. I think what makes stencils look so good is when you overlay the colors like on that Hamilton Silk Cabby.

Ron
Michael Baker
View Profile
Eternal Order
Near a river in the Midwest
11157 Posts

Profile of Michael Baker
Hi Jim,

If anyone has hero-worship, it's me in your presence! Smile

Thanks for that great information! I have a frisket knife, but have never heard of a stencil burner. I will go looking. Using magnets is a great idea for flat wood.

May I ask you a question inregard to a specific item to be stenciled? Large dice, as with a Die Box. At present, the most effective method I have found is doing a reverse stencil job. Paint the spot color, mask with stick on dot labels, and spray the main die color. I know there has to be a better way.

One problem is that the stencil work must be done fairly close to the edge of an otherwise small face. Too much over hand of the stencil causes it to bow. Too little and it must be taped in place to mask the other die surfaces... same problem from a different cause.

Any thoughts?

I am also very interested in the fiberglass stencils you mentioned. A quick online search showed a few possible info links. I will check those later. Thanks for that, too.

Regarding silk screen, I have a few pieces here that were silk screened. Homer Hudson Vampire Block is one such. The Hamilton piece I worked on, I really believe was stenciled. The work was just the best I have seen.

Ron,

The items that I made do mostly have waterslide decals (not all, but most). The Hamilton dove vanish was different. That is an original piece that I did restoration work on.

~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company
George Ledo
View Profile
Magic Café Columnist
SF Bay Area
2860 Posts

Profile of George Ledo
Going away from stencils for a moment...

One product I've been meaning to try is a do-it-yourself decal product I found in the MicroMark catalog. It's for people who want to make up their own signs and labels on model trains and similar stuff. Apparently you just run the sheet through a color printer and then apply it like a regular decal.

MicroMark also sells a brush-on product that supposedly makes the "decal" look go away by somehow blending it into the background, so all you see is the design itself.

Not something I would use on a real piece of furniture, but sounds good for a prop.

Is this what you use, Michael?
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net

Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here"
Ron Reid
View Profile
Inner circle
Phoenix, Arizona
2733 Posts

Profile of Ron Reid
Michael:

I'd like to add a stencil to a silk cabby I recently restored. Here's a link to another silk cabby I restored - go about 1/2 way down the page. I haven't taken a picture of the newer one, but very similar except for the color. It's done with a black base and red cabinet and doors. There is gold pin striping just like the one pictured.

http://members.cox.net/ronreid/

I think the pin striping and stencil will be too much, so I'm prepared to take the pin striping off if needed.

Thanks again.

Ron
Michael Baker
View Profile
Eternal Order
Near a river in the Midwest
11157 Posts

Profile of Michael Baker
George,

I use Lazertran waterslide decal paper for inkjet printers. They also make it for color copiers, but I have not tried it. The type I use is just a hair thicker than the pre-made decals I used on models. It also dries with unprinted areas to an eggshell finish, so it has to be topcoated with lacquer, polyurethane or similar oil-based clear coat. This renders the unprinted areas clear. It then becomes a challenge if you want white in some areas, but clear in others. I have to undercoat certain areas the color I wish to show through. I also have to do this when applying a lighter colored decal over dark bacgrounds.

This technique must also be used when I want a metallic color, like gold, as I cannot print gold ink.

I have heard that there is also a decal paper that stays white in the unprinted areas. I've seen it available online, and have been told about it from another magician builder, but have not tried it.

I used to be quite involved in model railroading, and have seen the blank decal paper, for that purpose, but can't recall the name of the company that made it. They were small sheets, maybe 6x9. They made other normal decals, as well. I have seen another printable decal recently, and want to say it was Testors. I'll have to check the hobby shop again.

For normal decals on model railroads, I used a product like you are referring to.

Microsol is wonderful stuff. When applying decals to model trains, etc., you encounter grooves, bumps and all sorts of nice tiny detail on the models. Microsol causes the decal to basically dissolve. As it does, left untouched, it settles into those irregular areas. When dry, it is a near perfect blend into the surface. I have not tried this with inkjet decals.

Ron,

I have seen your restoration photos before. Your work is very nice! Smile

~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company
RiserMagic
View Profile
Veteran user
361 Posts

Profile of RiserMagic
Michael;
I own a 20 ton punch with a wide variety of punch shapes. I seek out additional odd ball punch/die sets whenever I travel and have built up a neat collection of shapes to use. Anyway, I would punch 7 round holes in a sheet metal plate and soft solder this flat plate with its holes to the end of a square sheet metal tube. This tube would slip over the die to be painted and protect it from overspray when using the double action air brush. As long as the hole edges were cleaned up and the plate was flat, there would be no overspray. This assumes a well made die. Apply paint lightly in several coats to avoid bleed under the stencil. Cover unneeded holes with tape as required.

An example of a silk screened Hamilton piece is his Gwendolyn Card Duck.

A pantograph may be used to cut cool metal stencils from shim brass or plastic. See mine here:
jamesriser.com
This is perfect for making dragon stencils. The master templates can be cut way oversized on a scroll saw from tempered hardboard. The final reduction in size smooths things out.

Metal and plastic permanent stencils may also be cut with a good scroll saw with the stencil material sandwiched between thin plywood to prevent buckling.

Ron, I've seen your restored items on ebay and always thought you added class to the items. You do nice work.
Jim
Michael Baker
View Profile
Eternal Order
Near a river in the Midwest
11157 Posts

Profile of Michael Baker
Jim,

Thanks for the ideas. The square metal tube idea just gave me an idea for an adjustable jig, as sometimes there are slight variances in the dice from one set to another. This should allow for drop-in stencil plates of various sizes and spot diameters.

Since I don't own a punch, nor do I believe I have access to one, do you think a die spot plate could be cut from shim brass or aluminum with a Forstner bit, after sandwiching the metal between thin sheets of plywood?

I used a Forstner bit recently to cut holes in a piece of brass for a shell needed to fit a block with holes in it. The drill job was not perfect, but better than I initially thought it might be.

~michael

PS - The pantograph machine webpage is amazing! What a great machine!
~michael baker
The Magic Company
Ron Reid
View Profile
Inner circle
Phoenix, Arizona
2733 Posts

Profile of Ron Reid
Thanks for the words of encouragement, Michael and Jim. I'm real lowtech and just do it in my spare time, so words of encouragement always help. I will get back you and let you know how the stenciling goes.

Ron
m.ruetz
View Profile
Veteran user
Peoria Arizona, USA
378 Posts

Profile of m.ruetz
I have both of these silk cabby's in my collection and I would have to say that neither is stenciled in my opinion (but rather silk screened I would imagine). The lines are crisp and detail appear to be too great to achieve with a production stencil job. I see no overspray or other tell-tale signs.
MagicGizmo: Magic Articles, Classifieds, Videos, and more
http://magicgizmo.com
hugmagic
View Profile
Inner circle
7350 Posts

Profile of hugmagic
The product that Michael is referring to is the Alps printers. these are hard to come by here in the states but they are basically a dye sub type of process. Do a google on it and it might work for you.

I am lucky as I have two of them that I will keep until they die.

Richard
Richard E. Hughes, Hughes Magic Inc., 352 N. Prospect St., Ravenna, OH 44266 (330)296-4023
www.hughesmagic.com
email-hugmagic@raex.com
Write direct as I will be turning off my PM's.
RiserMagic
View Profile
Veteran user
361 Posts

Profile of RiserMagic
Michael;
A true Forstner bit might be ruined by cutting metal. The saw tooth bits (look similar to Forstner bits) might work. I would not want to possibly chew up my expensive bits trying it out. A hole saw with the plywood sandwich might be a better choice. It is critical to keep the metal flat and have no "raised rims" on the holes on the side against the object being painted.
Jim
Michael Baker
View Profile
Eternal Order
Near a river in the Midwest
11157 Posts

Profile of Michael Baker
I'll give it a shot, Jim. Thanks much!

~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company
hugmagic
View Profile
Inner circle
7350 Posts

Profile of hugmagic
You might also consider by a greenlee knockout punch used by electrician. They are not cheap but sometimes you can pick up a bargin on ebay.

Richard
Richard E. Hughes, Hughes Magic Inc., 352 N. Prospect St., Ravenna, OH 44266 (330)296-4023
www.hughesmagic.com
email-hugmagic@raex.com
Write direct as I will be turning off my PM's.
Michael Baker
View Profile
Eternal Order
Near a river in the Midwest
11157 Posts

Profile of Michael Baker
Thanks Richard! I'll look into that, too.

~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workshop » » Did they use stenciling for this? (0 Likes)
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2019 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.21 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL