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Chris S Veteran user 393 Posts |
I was wondering if someone who has actually seen or used the palm could comment on my question. I have not yet seen the palm, but it sounds very similar to a palm Derek Dingle published in his CSB routine (see Dingle's deceptions), and Gary Kurtz also used it in a similar way - to steal a stack of coins from one hand to another. Rune Klan finessed the move and added a brilliant palm change to the awkward position of the coins.
Can someone comment on the similarity, or difference?
May your moral compass guide you true - South West is where the honourable man fare. Pity those who lose their way...
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Curtis Kam V.I.P. same as you, plus 3 and enough to make 3498 Posts |
Chris,
The palm you're refering to (as used by Dingle and Kurtz) is the old thumb palm. Back in the day, (pre-Downs, I believe) the only way to thumb palm was to grasp the coins as you have described. Mutobe Palm is different. It is similar to other grips, most notably the Drobina palm, Lamont Ream's Lamont Grip, and perhaps something secret by Wes James. However, it is not the Thumb palm. Both are used in Palms of Steel 2, if you need a ready reference.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
As it happens, there is a similar palm used by Derek Dingle in the 70s, and David Roth and the gang in NYC. It was used instead of the standard thumb palm to effect a multi-coin steal. It was also explored as a replacement for fingerpalm where 'take' type vanishes would be done stacking the coins into this grip.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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bakerkn Regular user 121 Posts |
The position in which the coin lies in the Mutobe Palm is also very similar to Ramsay thumb palm position.
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
I was misinformed about the Mutobe palm position until I saw POS2.
Maybe this will help differentiate: Ramsay Palm is pretty similar to what Mike Rubinstein teaches on his videos as Angle Palm where the coin is held by the base of the thumb knuckle and the fleshy part of the thumb base. Thumb Crotch Palm - the one that Kurtz uses for the multiple coin stack steals, the coin is held against the first palanx of the thumb (held against the thumb gripped between the two thumb knuckles). Mutobe palm - Put a coin in Downs palm, then rotate the coin so it faces the floor - this is pretty much the Mutobe position. |
Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4665 Posts |
Let's set the record straight about this palm. The first reference to anything like it comes from Jack Chanin in his 1941 booklet, "Handle With Gloves". In it, he calls the palm the J.C. Palm (although others have referred to it as the Chanin Grip).
Frank Drobina had his own routine published in "The New Modern Coin Magic," by Bobo. He used dimes, and squeezed them into the crotch of his thumb. In the mid 70's I independently began to use the grip, which I called Angle palm. I sent some of my moves in to Ed Mishell for publication in the SAM magazine. Mr. Mishell returned them to me, as he felt it was too hard for the SAM audience. However, he wrote me that he also used a similar palm of his own. I finally published my technique and its applications in my book, "Intermediate and Advanced Coin Technique," in 1982. Beating me to the punch, however, was Lamont Ream. He also independently came up with the palm, which he called the Lamont Grip. He put his techniques into the book, "Coin Creations," published in 1981. I only saw his book just before mine went to the publisher, and I mention him in my own book. Some of my ideas are on my Coin Sleight DVDs, which I made in 1985. I showed Gary Kurtz my handlings at the New York Magic Symposium in 1983 (I think), and I believe he utilizes the grip the way I showed it to him. Mr. Mutobe published the same basic grip under his own name much later (and I believe that he too, developed it independently, although I did sell my tapes on my 1987 Japan Tour.) Lastly, Wesley James is putting out a book that utilizes a very similar grip that has yet another name. He told me that Ramsay had a similar palm as well (unknown dating on that). We compared grips, and to me they are extremely similar - a slight positioning variation, but essentially the same idea. So, to sum it up, everyone is doing the same basic thing! But, since it is a rarely used palm/grip, it is easy for a number of coin workers to each develop it independently. So, give everyone credit, but Chanin was, I think, the first. I hope that clears it up once and for all (at least for the time being!). Stay well, Michael Rubinstein
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
Thanks for the interesting history Mike.
Dan |
tankk New user 55 Posts |
Wow this is better than school! Thanks for all the great info Mike.
Kevin |
Kainoa Elite user NewArk, Delaware 424 Posts |
Just got back from meeting with Wesley James about this very history, and had a very enjoyable time hanging out with some of the NYC magi. Wesley’s work will be a wonderful contribution to the practicality of this palm.
The only thing I’ll add to the history from the Japan side is that Mutobe apparently did develop it independently and had his handling of the palm published in the mid-seventies....in Japanese, of course (I flipped through a copy while in Hawaii this Christmas). Mutobe’s emphasis is on the ability to see the thumb on the far side of the hand and thereby make the hand look completely flat, whether concealing one coin or a stack. All of Gary Kurtz’s performances I’ve seen, as well as his publications use the thumb palm Curtis mentioned, which creates an incredible freedom of the fingers while allowing one to firmly control a stack; the position also creates the added effect of making one’s thumb disappear (or appear somewhat misshapen, if the thumb remains visible). I only partially hope that with POS and with Wesley's upcoming material, the move will become much more popular with magicians because of its fun applications (I'm playing with Roth's Portable Hole again because I finally have a spider vanish of two coins that looks pretty thanks to this funky thumb palm). I also hope, though, that it will drop back into obscurity again so that those of us who do use it can continue to fool those that don’t. |
Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4665 Posts |
Hey, thanks for the info on Mutobe - didn't know that! - Mike
S.E.M. (The Sun, the Moon, and the Earth) is a sun and moon routine unlike any other. Limited to 100 sets, here is the promo:
https://youtu.be/aFuAWCNEuOI?si=ZdDUNV8lUPWvtOcL $325 ppd USA (Shipping extra outside of USA). If interested, shoot me an email for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com |
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