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Fingers Inner circle Pennsylvania, USA 1330 Posts |
I haven't been doing this very long, but long enough to make note that what we need is a coin magic book. No, not what you are thinking, I mean a book of credited coin magicians, both old and new.
There needs to be a book, a coin magic book listing all the credited coin magicians of the world. Also, something that could be updated yearly. What I mean by credited, I guess, would be published. Kind of an almanac of coin magicians. Along with that list would be: Their accomplishments or achievements What they published Their inventions Their history Where they are from Possibly how to contact them Internet sites Routines they are famous for Their Techniques Their books Their Videos Their DVD's Times and dates of their accomplishments Etc. Etc. Etc. just to name a few possible categories. I see plenty of coin magicians around here that I think would enjoy and be able to contribute to such a book. I would like to see what your ideas on the categories would be, if anything it should be interesting. The way things are right now there is to much of a scattered history of coin magicians with scattered sources. Nothing I see is very clear, its kind of all over the place with a lot of arguing over who did this or who did that. I think a nice neat list with some good categories would fit the bill perfectly or maybe I am wrong. This is just my opinion, but I would like to see the ones that deserve the credit get it. It would also give us a place where we could get details of say, sources of techniques and routines, books, DVD's, etc., etc....
Where I go, so do my coins.....
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Fingers,
There's been such a long history and accepted pattern of abuse of those who create new magic that by and large magic is going underground again. If you want to collate the published history of what's out there... go for it. It's "educational" in a safe trivial way. But if you want to get at what makes magic (in general or by some myopic specialization) work and who made the stuff work... it's going to be more academic than actually useful to the student trying to BECOME a magician. To bring this home for those who need to learn by example: How much of Laurie Ireland's coin magic do you enjoy using? What about Milt Kort's? Charles Bertram's? Ross Bertram's? How much of the material in Downs' The Art of Magic or Modern Coin Manipulation have you worked on until you have your own versions? IMHO at this stage of the game there is no credit for publishing much less creating a "historic collage" of material and names of folks whose lifetimes of work are trodden on daily in this community.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Charlie Justice Inner circle Mount Dora, Florida 1142 Posts |
What we need is a set of volumes called Coin College.
peace, charlie |
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Larry Barnowsky Inner circle Cooperstown, NY where bats are made from 4770 Posts |
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......;forum=3
Check here for a spirited discussion of "Coin College". |
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Fingers Inner circle Pennsylvania, USA 1330 Posts |
I am not sure you people understand my point. The book I am talking about is no so much for learning coin magic as it is for "organizing" it. It would be more for the purpose of letting people know the origin of coin magic such as: the coin magicians themselves, their props, origins of the gaffs they use, where to find their products(DVD's, videos, books), origin of their routines, their sleights, their web-sites and the like.
The book would teach nothing, just give you a source where you could find out about the various coin magicians and what made them successful for example, what they are noted for and where to get what they produce. It would do this in some logical, possibly alphabetical or sequential manner. Right now finding out about this stuff is all over the board, anywhere and everywhere. People are asking about this sleight, this routine, about that coin magician, that gaff or who is the originator of that routine or who are the coin magicians that perform this routine. The book I am talking about would fix those problems in some logical manner and be a source for people to look at and find out about the particular things they want to know in coin magic or at least where to go to find it out, kind of a "directory" of coin magic.....
Where I go, so do my coins.....
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Gary Dayton Special user New Jersey 542 Posts |
Denis Behr has started something akin to your concept on his site:
http://www.denisbehr.de/ click on the link for magicbook archive. It is pretty useful in running down information. You might want to talk with him. He posts here on the Café. |
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Nathan Kranzo V.I.P. 2955 Posts |
I think what you are looing for is called "research". : )
All the best, Kranzo
check out MINDZILLA VOL. 2!!! Brand New Effects. Instant Downloads. Watch Demo Videos. Click below!!!
KranzoMagic.com |
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Fingers Inner circle Pennsylvania, USA 1330 Posts |
Thanks for the web-site address Gary Dayton, its a nice site, but not exactly what I had in mind.
You got it Mr. Nathan Kranzo and a lot of research it would take! It would be a book where you would look up your favorite coin magician, for example, say David Roth and find out his history, what made him popular, what gaffs he may have invented, what books, DVD's or videos he has produced and where to get them, what routines he is noted for and how to contact him (web-site address, for instance). So, a lot of research to say the least! Not only that, you could use the book by simply looking up your favorite routine and find out where it originated and noted performers of that routine or who made the routine popular. Also, it could be used to find out about various sleights, feints or subleties. The book I am picturing would be quite versatile and very informative, but the most important thing, very organized and in one spot.....
Where I go, so do my coins.....
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Pachin Regular user 153 Posts |
If this book ever comes out I will always be researching for the information that is not included in the book.
Secret, underground, unique, lost or limited is more excited and informative. Joaquin |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-11-10 21:03, Pachin wrote:... Secret means SECRET. Not available by book or in any public forum Underground means only known by those trusted personally by the inventor (plus leaks by those who gossip) Lost is very sad. Limited is limited by the inventor, the publisher or sometimes by collectors or sometimes by price, like the Harbin book is kind of limited. At the moment we are having a go at cleaning up (and organizing) the provenance of our material in general. If you follow along with those discussions you will likely find much of what you are seeking as far as published material and some works from those long past.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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clamon86 Special user 508 Posts |
This sounds like a like of work, just like card college was. Maybe in a few years, when you're more familiar with coin magic you can start it.
There are several things I don't like about underground magic. 1. If we are sharing an art and trying to expand and enhance it, any magic that is circulated within 50-100 people won't do the art much good. 2. Its makes it even harder to be creative and independently come up with something. 3. Certain magician's magic won't be credited properly if all others are unfamiliar with who invented it, like has happened repeatedly with so many magicians, inlcuding Jon Townsend A collection of books like Card College has inspired a new generation, just because Roberto Giobbi and other took the time to collect and compile all the techniques that were lost forgotten, new and old. Because of that more younger magicians are looking proper technique faster. I feel a coin magic book is possible, but because there is so much overlap, it will certainly be a challenge. just my two centavos |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-11-12 00:35, clamon86 wrote:... Not to worry. With that kind of perspective it is unlikely anyone wanting their work kept in confidence will bring you into any underground. If material was intended for publication or sale, it would be offered up. This is not about "credit" but about simply honoring the wishes of the FEW folks who do the inventing. These are not folks who go around crowing "look at what I came up with" but instead folks who quietly ask to see if something they got working has been done before... or find a useful way to interpret some old text in a new context and get something surprising to happen. Second problem with wanting to uproot underground material is that most published data seems to wind up on the internet available to ANYONE and that sort of exposure is very uncomfortable to those who value magic secrets. And by value I mean understand how necessary they are to offer magic to audiences. It's like putting "there is no santa, or tooth fariy" in tv shows intended for young children. It may be true, but it is not helpful. So here we are. Some want an encyclopedia to help their studies. Others want all the books and tricks taken underground to keep everyone on the internet from reading or seeing this data.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Christopher Williams Inner circle Portsmouth, UK 4464 Posts |
I wouldn't see the point personally. What happens if you release the book, then a month later most of the people release new effects, books or DVDs etc. Then the book is already out of date. If you want to find info on someone like David Roth, then search for him. Type in 'David Roth Magic' into google or dogpile or something, and it comes up with all their info anyway. It gives you links to selling everything he has released, what is still available, who he is, what he does etc.
Something like wikipedia would be better for what you want to do. This way it can be updated when necessary and links can be provided to websites and products |
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Fingers Inner circle Pennsylvania, USA 1330 Posts |
Hi Pachin, if you are looking for underground material, this wouldn't be your book. Like Mr. Townsend said "Secret means SECRET", anyway, it would be the kind of book used to organize the art of coin magic from the standpoint of already published or produced material.
I appreciate the fact that some coin magicians would want to keep some or all of their material secret, especially if they are making a living at doing their coin magic and expecially if you are the only one who can do certain routines your material becomes much more valuable. The book I am talking about is for material that is already out there, so to speak. In fact it would give recognition to the artists who produced origin material such as Mr. Townsend himself and others, many others. Yes, you are right, Christopher Williams you could just do a google search on the internet for David Roth, however, that is assuming you had his name. One of the purposes of the book would be if you didn't have the name. What I mean by that is, say you wanted to learn just the basic sleights. You could look it up in the book and it would give you a list of people who are noted for teaching them. It may list David Roth, David Stone and Michael Ammar, for instance and maybe you never even heard those names before in your life. It would have been hard to look them up on the internet if you never had the names to start with. The book I am thinking of could be used for many things, but mainly associating artists in coin magic with routines you would like to learn or sleights or even things like misdirection or a particular type gaff use. It would also be a source for the origin and give credit to the originators of such coin material. It would give you a basic explanation of everything in coin magic and a list of where to get even a more detailed description of the things that interest you in particular. One other thing, there seems to be advances and changes in coin magic on almost a daily basis, so the book I am talking about would have to be dated. Dated, meaning, for example, "Coin Magic 2006" and the next year, "Coin Magic 2007, etc., etc. It would have to be an ongoing project updated yearly. I think the book would be of great use to the novice coin magician, but even to some extent the seasoned pro. It would give credit for the art to those who deserve it in black and white, at least as much as possible.
Where I go, so do my coins.....
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Consider what it would mean to have such a book, and find that book in the hands of the world at large. Suddenly your convenenient reference is a huge exposure liabilty.
IMHO it's time to take all of magic back underground. Get back to direct personal contact and trust.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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jocce Regular user 136 Posts |
I'm not against the idea on any ideological reasons, I'm far too new to this fantastic world to have developed that. But, I'm pretty sure a book like that is not something I would buy. I find the process of searching around, talking to people, asking, and sometimes receiving, an integral part of the learning process.
I especially don't find this something that would be useful for beginning coin wo/men. As a beginner you got plenty of material, with references in one book or DVD/video. If there's something specific I need to know, there's always this wonderful café. |
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bobn3 Special user Wichita, KS 718 Posts |
I have mixed emotions on this. It would be a shame to "lose" techniques. By the same token, people such as Nate and Jon have worked long and hard doing the research and development to develop their techniques and routines. Are you expecting to be spoon fed what the fruits of their labors because you are unwilling to do the same?
Bob Phillips |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I learned a great deal from PEOPLE. And from books that document the leftovers from those who passed on decades ago. Not spoon fed. Instead I learned in a "watch and learn" situation where it was considered taboo to show around other people's unpublished works and unthinkable to publish material derived from such unpublished works.
But most of all it's the PEOPLE. And they were and still are both kind and giving about magic. And also good about keeping secrets.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Gary Dayton Special user New Jersey 542 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-11-13 08:18, Jonathan Townsend wrote: I fear that technology, the relentless press of commercial interests, and the demand of all the new markets beginning to open up (arising from new technology like the internet, as well as places such as China) may be taking us in the opposite direction. It may no longer be in anyone's control. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-11-13 10:53, Gary Dayton wrote:...may be taking us in the opposite direction. It may no longer be in anyone's control. Yes it is in our contnrol. If you want certain new material, which is not offered in the market, you will have to go personal.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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