The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Magical Accessories » » Review of Fitch Kohler Professional Holdout (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5 [Next]
mdspark
View Profile
Special user
785 Posts

Profile of mdspark
Just wanted to add my 2 cents worth. I agree with Carlos' earlier post about using some of the less expensive holdouts (in this case the Miller Holdout as outlined in Ed Mishell's book "Holdout Miracles") This will certainly give the uninitiated their "basic holdout training." If you just get Mishell's book, you can EASILY make your own.

This will also give you an appreciation for the innovations/improvments of the FK Holdout.
However, I must say that one can overcome most of the 'adjustment' issues easily.

Example: I use mine mostly with cards, balls, silk, coins. My ball attachment is used for a silk also. (If you read the Mishell book, this will make more sense to you). I made the coin attachment (as detailed in the book) the same length as the ball/silk attachment, so I can switch between the two attachments without needing to re-adjust the total holdout length.

Playing cards may take up "more length" in the sleeve, but I have found there is enough "margin of error" to still use them without having to re-adust the total length of the holdout and if it does need re-adjusting a bit, this can be done very subtly at the other end.

As for the adjustment from coat to coat, this hasn't been an issue for me so far but it can become one. Again, minor adjustments are easily made OR I will make a holdout for each jacket (they are NOT hard to make and it does NOT take long.)

If you are doing more than one effect with the holdout in a formal show and need to change attachments, this can be done when BRIEFLY behind an open case when retrieving or replacing a prop. If you are gutsy, it is possible to do it behind your back.

The "lock" is more problematic. I am unfamiliar with Tommy Wonder's solution. I do plan on getting the Books of Wonder. The solution in the Mishell book has worked well for my purposes, though I am sure the FK Holdout is much more versitile in this regard and the others mentioned.

All I am saying is that if you are really interested in learning this device but short on money, get the Mishell Book and play around with it. When you get it working smoothly, it really does look miraculous.

I would also be willing to say that the detailed instructions given on the FK Holdout DVD would be INVALUABLE. You don't get this kind of info from the Mishell book. You must be vigilant with the basic concept of "naturalness" in movements, etc.

Once you get familiar and at ease with working a holdout, then you will know if the high-tech/improved model would be worth the expense TO YOU.

I believe the reason why the Miller type holdout has not been used more over the years is because of the practice needed to get smooth and comfortable with it (just like the Topit) as well as many of us being turned off to the fact that you need to wear a jacket (like the Topit).

I think everyone interested but inexperienced with the Miller type holdout should know that the "old-style," "low-tech," "unimproved," original verson IS THOROUGHLY WORKABLE if you don't have $1800. The effects you perform with it will look just as miraculous and will need the same amout of practice.

I would also say, that if I USED AND DEPENDED ON the holdout regularly AND had $1800 extra to invest (which I don't), I would get the FK Holdout System.

But if you are new to holdouts and don't already regularly use one, do yourself a favor, get the Ed Mishell book (got mine at Tannen's) for a few bucks. Then you will be on your way and not out a lot of money.

I would like to hear feedback on this.

Magically,
Mark
Dan Watkins
View Profile
Inner circle
PA
3025 Posts

Profile of Dan Watkins
Quote:
On 2003-02-21 16:35, mdspark wrote:
I would like to hear feedback on this.


I think you obviously have a good grasp of the use of a holdout and its pros/cons. I think the points you make are very good.

It is good for anyone interested to get the Mishell book, Books of Wonder, Vernet Book, etc. And get a clip a weight and some fishing line to play with.

If someone decides to get real serious with it ($1,800 serious) then you will be getting the best tools and teaching available.

My feedback is there is nothing to argue about in your post, it is sound advice.
Click to visit:
Image
mdspark
View Profile
Special user
785 Posts

Profile of mdspark
Thanks Dan.
BTW, do you know where I can find the Vernet book? I haven't really heard of it before. I have only seen it referenced in this forum.

I would appreciate any direction you could give. What is its title?

Thanks again.
Mark
Dan Watkins
View Profile
Inner circle
PA
3025 Posts

Profile of Dan Watkins
Mark,

It's called "The Invisible Hand." I would go to http://www.vernetmagic.com/ and email the Vernet guys about it. It sells with their version of the Miller holdout for $50 or so. I don't know if it is something dealers carry. It seems as though people get them at live lectures from them.

Dan
Click to visit:
Image
Dennis Loomis
View Profile
1943 - 2013
2115 Posts

Profile of Dennis Loomis
Is the FK holdout shipping yet? This thread needs an evaluation from someone that has purchased this.
Dennis Loomis
http://www.mindspring.com/~deloomis/dai.html
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
Dan LeFay
View Profile
Inner circle
Holland
1371 Posts

Profile of Dan LeFay
At the risk of being called cynical (which I'm not) I have a strong feeling that nobody who has bought the FKH will ever say it's not worth the money. Even if the product should stink, which I cannot imagine, there is always something like cognitive dissonance.

Personally, I am more interested in opinions from people who do NOT own it but have seen it in action like Dan W.
"Things need not have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths,
that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes,
and forgot."
Neil Gaiman
Dan Watkins
View Profile
Inner circle
PA
3025 Posts

Profile of Dan Watkins
Actually, the guy who paid the $$$ and expected to use it with a T-shirt would think it stinks!
Click to visit:
Image
bekralik
View Profile
Inner circle
Canada
1075 Posts

Profile of bekralik
WHAT? You mean you can't??!! I've been misled! Smile
mdspark
View Profile
Special user
785 Posts

Profile of mdspark
Dennis is right. Let's hear from folks who have bought the F/K Holdout.

Though I do have a tendency to agree with Dan LeFay. Perhaps they will be reluctant to post a review. But I am still trying to keep an open mind on this.

I can't help but wonder what would have happened had Patrick Page or Micheal Ammar taken the same marketing approach with the Topit and its "improvements".

I understand (and agree with) Mr. Fitch's and Mr. Kohler's concerns, wanting to protect the holdout as a secret from laypersons and indiscreet individuals, I'm just not sure there is a truly effective and practical solution.

It is entirely possible that their approach will actually encourage/bait some ******* into doing it.

Given these men's reputations, I have no doubt as to the quality workmanship involved. I dare say, however, my homemade model with the "more user friendly improvements" I have added can perform the exact same effects just as easily.

Given that, unless I were extremely wealthy, I would be crazy to pay $1,800. I know it comes with probably very excellent training DVDs that I would love to have, but still can't justify that cost.

Sooooooo, How about it? Let's hear from an acutal owner of the F/K Holdout!!! Smile
Michele
View Profile
Loyal user
Taiwan
293 Posts

Profile of Michele
Hi mdspark,
I'm agree with you about "Let's hear from an acutal owner of the F/K Holdout!"
I'm the first pile of people who are very interested in F/K Holdout since last year. When I 'm still waiting for this F/K Holdout launch to market.There is new Holdout call "Perfect Holdout" launvh to market. I've bought that perfect holdout . But I still waiting for some user/owner's reveiw on F/K Holdout because I decided to invest a more advance holdout system for my act.

Unfortunately untill today I cann't hear anyone who have received this F/K holdout nor post any review of it.
bekralik
View Profile
Inner circle
Canada
1075 Posts

Profile of bekralik
Nobody's received it yet, that's why nobody has been talking about it.

Brian
Steve Hook
View Profile
Inner circle
Raleigh, NC, USA
1260 Posts

Profile of Steve Hook
Guys, you've already gotten reviews from several people who saw the holdout, examined the parts, and saw some routines. They all said it was great. And I think they all agreed it was a tool waiting for some serious practice.

It's kind of frustrating...what else do you expect to hear that hasn't been said?
Smile

Steve H Smile
Like Bonnie Raitt said, "I miss Little Feat more than I miss being 8 years old." Long live Lowell and Richie!
Dan Watkins
View Profile
Inner circle
PA
3025 Posts

Profile of Dan Watkins
Yep - even if I owned one, I couldn't say more than I already have on it.
Click to visit:
Image
mdspark
View Profile
Special user
785 Posts

Profile of mdspark
I don't think it is unreasonable to want to hear from an ACTUAL PAYING customer. Preferably someone that did not see the Holdout prior to purchase.

Hopefully, we wont have to wait too much longer for such a review.

However, I KNOW that my homemade, customized version is just as user friendly as as the discription of the F/K HOLDOUT discribes. And my attachments handle a variety of items...silks, balls, cards, coins, jumbo coin.

Hummm, maybe I will write a booklet discribing how to make a user friendly QUALITY Holdout for Pennies... Just a thought.

Has anyone heard when the actual release date for it is? It should be soon, I would think.
coinlover
View Profile
Regular user
107 Posts

Profile of coinlover
I'm very happy to see this topic again,because I think there's someone who received the Holdout and post a freview here.But I'm disappointed again.

Mdspark,
Many member here have aksed about the actual release date of it , but never have a response. Just like me I waited for a review of it since last year(Dec).

Mr.Steve Hook said (Guys, you've already gotten reviews from several people who saw the holdout, examined the parts, and saw some routines. They all said it was great. And I think they all agreed it was a tool waiting for some serious practice. ).....Yes, I know it is great, I own several Bob's products I know it is good. But how good is this Holdout ? I to want to hear from an actual user .No matter how good it is ,there must be some advantage and disadvantage of it. Just like.....It is more suitable for cards or coins or larger items,etc.. may be it is not suitable for left-handed. Also about the practice ? is it easy to practice ? only needs a few weeks you can handle it or need six months or more to familiar with it. That's all we need to hear from a actual daily user.

I hope I don't need to wait for another couples of months for this user review.
Tim Trono
View Profile
Inner circle
1108 Posts

Profile of Tim Trono
Interesting discussion. To each his own. However, I think what Dan Watkins quoted from Bob Fitch (“We have been screwing around all these years. I wish I had this holdout 30 years ago, it would have solved so many problems”) really says it all. Why waste 30 years? Remember, Bob is a Master at this… I mean Master. I have been fortunate enough to study with him and while doing so was fortunate enough to see some of his work in this area. It is brilliant. This is NOT saying the other versions out are bad – that is NOT the case. If you see Mitchel and Greco or Antonio Romero you will see “real” magic. I think the F/K Holdout just takes care of some of the “problems” Fitch, Kohler, Wayne, Forbes, and Mead have found in other versions and compiles their years of work on the Holdout. Also, Dan you are correct in that the DVDs will cover all of the work from set up and maintenance of the Holdout to choreography to footwork to bad habits to the routines themselves… every detail. I believe it is 4 or 5 DVDs. And this is the key… a Holdout is not difficult to set up and use but it is difficult to use WELL and to use deceptively. With the F/K Holdout they go into the details never taught before. Anyone of the parties involved in this project has YEARS of and a treasure chest of thoughts, advice, etc. For those willing to pay the price, I think they will be quite happy. I was fortunate enough to see the F/K Holdout and was beyond impressed. It is NOT out yet but I know a few select people (including Dan Watkins) have seen it.

Tim Trono
Mr. Bunkley
View Profile
New user
68 Posts

Profile of Mr. Bunkley
Jello,

I got my "The Invisable Hand" book and holdout attachment from Denny and Lee Magic Shop He might still gave some available.

my thoughts,
Daniel

Jello again,

For those that are dieing until they see a video of this thing in action, let me suggest that they pick up Steve Bedwell's No MD required video. On there he does a rope routine that begins with a very quick and totally amazing cut and restored rope. . . your eyes will pop out of your head. Then when he explains the working of that effect he completely glosses over the amazing beginning. He doesn't even talk about it.,

Well. . .I read a later interview with him where he explained that the restoration was done with the BK/BF Holdout system. So. . . there's your video. It really is an amazing effect.

Check it out, (50 posts, yet - ha)
Daniel
espmagic
View Profile
Special user
846 Posts

Profile of espmagic
Ok - I will start by admitting my ignorance about Mr K's device...however, I *do* have some experience with the idea of a holdout, and a few of them in real working situations (gambling, not magic), so my question to those of you who know is:

Does this device do something that cannot be done by sleight of hand? Regardless of the SOH method, as a group we are all guilty of looking at the easier method (whatever that might be!), and I know of very few magicians (or gamblers, for that matter) who are prepared to put in *years* of work to get it/anything right. After all, we have very short attention spans...

And, if this is the case, are those who are getting one going to be doing Martin Nash's act? Or Allan Ackerman's? Or Darwin's? And, the more important question: are these esteemed fellows already using the device? <grin> Or are they using <gasp> SOH?

Yes, I would love to have one, but not at 6 months' rent. And certainly not when I can do the same thing with a turn of the wrist (which I will point out, proactively, that goes unnoticed).
"Let it be simple and pure, because miracles are simple and pure." - Mind2Mind.ca
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
26852 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
Hello EspMagic,

Both Fitch and Kohler are competent technicians and performers. The magician's holdout is designed for standup use with an emphasis on traffic management.

Not all magicians suffer from ADD and some have put the years in to make the tough moves work for them.

For those who already use a holdout and know what the issues are, the F/K system may be a great help. I do know that both Fitch and Kohler have been living with works in their jackets for twenty or more years and have practical performing experience.

All this from someone who doesn't wear a jacket and has been keeping an eye open to get an extension arm holdout built for about twenty five years now. Smile -Jonathan
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Dan Watkins
View Profile
Inner circle
PA
3025 Posts

Profile of Dan Watkins
Quote:
On 2003-03-10 09:44, coinlover wrote:
Many member here have aksed about the actual release date of it , but never have a response.


Here is your response: I don't think there is a current release date. I am on a mailing list of Bob K's, and even though it did not mention the holdout project, it did mention that he was moving into a new house, and I had seperately heard about some health issues Bob dealt with late last year. I am guessing life side tracked the release of this project. After waiting this long to release it in the first place I get the feeling Bob does not want to rush it out without everything being 100%. I know moving alone takes up a lot of time (at least it did when I last moved).

Since it has not been released yet, no-one is going to get a review from someone who has it yet. Given that, the best info you can get his from Bob's website, or the other handful of guys who have seen it and posted.

Quote:
But how good is this holdout?


It is one of the most impressive things I have ever seen. I have had the opportunity to see an original Miller, the Invisible Hand, The Romero Holdout, and the Fitch/Kohler version. The F/K version is in a class of it's own.

Quote:
It is more suitable for cards or coins or larger items,etc..


Coins or cards? Coins. Larger items? Not elephants - it has to be able to go up your sleeve. Since the standard F/K unit has eight different attachments and two user modifiable ones, it is equipped to holdout a large quantity of objects.

Quote:
may be it is not suitable for left-handed.


It can be used on either hand - all Miller type holdouts typically can. This was specifically addressed in the exposé at LVMI.

Quote:
Also about the practice ? is it easy to practice ? only needs a few weeks you can handle it or need six months or more to familiar with it. That's all we need to hear from a actual daily user.


How long would it take to actually use it? One day. How long to use it well? That depends on your learning ability. If it took someone 6 months, it might take another 1 year. Someone else less. Though much of the innovation in the Bobs' holdout is specifically to make it user friendly. That in itself will lessen the learning curve.

Quote:
I hope I don't need to wait for another couples of months for this user review.


You might have to if Bob doesn't have it ready, I doubt he will rush it out just for someone to review it here. I'd be highly curious to see if anyone who actually does buy it, will even bother writing to the world that they have it. It is possible you may never recieve a user review.

Quote:
On 2003-03-10 13:05, espmagic.com wrote:
Does this device do something that cannot be done by sleight of hand?


Yes - unless you have a slieght of hand method to make objects appear and dissappear at will in your hand. (not hold and hide, but really dissappear and appear).

Quote:
And, if this is the case, are those who are getting one going to be doing Martin Nash's act? Or Allan Ackerman's? Or Darwin's? And, the more important question: are these esteemed fellows already using the device? <grin> Or are they using <gasp> SOH?


I doubt anyone will be doing their acts holdout equipped or not. I would guess many of the people who get the holdout will be doing mostly routines taught on the DVD volumes, and the real creative guys will find their own uses. From what I saw, it has a lot of potential for creative fellows.

Quote:
Yes, I would love to have one, but not at 6 months' rent.


Man, I gotta move. My cost of living is way too high if $1,800 can cover six months rent!

Quote:
And certainly not when I can do the same thing with a turn of the wrist (which I will point out, proactively, that goes unnoticed).


I assume that is tongue in cheek comment.

Hopefully the responses help shed more light.

Dan
Click to visit:
Image
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Magical Accessories » » Review of Fitch Kohler Professional Holdout (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2019 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.37 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL