Greetings and Salutations Gary,

Good to hear from you, I was beginning to wonder if you'd been swallowed up in the wilds of New Zealand.

Keep us posted when you get your new site up and running.

Joe Zeman aka
The Mage Ulysses

I have the following list of cups. Gazzos for the main. Since posting many have been interested in getting a set. I have no animal cups at all wich is odd 'cos I thought I did. Getting some done soon. The replacement Gazzo is also being made and it is yet to be named. Babes to. and if I can afford it love cups.

cheeers magic people.



copper Gazzos 18 @ $295
brass gazzos 4 @ 350 these look great will keep one set for me.
copper babes 1- may hold onto these ,may not
copper mega thick two ring tall animals 2 @ 255 9plus one more slight 2nds)
Rare copper three ring tall animals reg 1 @ 375 (may keep- I love them)
Love cups two probably poken for @ 245( plus one 2nds)

Due to demand from performers mainly ,it is unlikely many will end up on ebay.
The two sets of seconds will.

Sets sold first come first served. postage to usa is plus 20 us dollars uk 25
oz ,nz a lot less.

email first. magictwit@hotmail.com or garyanimal@hotmail.com

Plus one set of stubby animals much used by me going on ebay. A little banged up one fits a bit tight. look great and need love. ebay soon under garyanimalcups ebay name.

Hello Gary,

Happy to see you have re-surfaced !

Kind thoughts,

Joe H

Just got me a set of those famous Gary Animal Gazzo cups in Copper... arrived today! Awesome!!

Don't miss out! Get 'em while you can... these are truly beautiful cups!!! Thanks Gary!

sdmagic

We sell some that are also solid copper and are slightly bigger than Gazzos with a whole lot of other stuff in the kit, of course, Gazzo is famous and has a well known name.

Andy

You say that you sell this stuff, and I saw it on your web site, but I e-mailed you repeatedly and you never answered any of my e-mails. The cups you are selling look like those awful copper cups from China that are cobbled together by MM.

We can get them over here for half that.

BTW, I like your statement that Gazzo is famous and that he has a well known name. You left out the part about how everyone knows who he is.

Where did you email me? My email address is on my website. Thanks for your review of my cups by the way, I do appreciate it, I'll put the comment on my website.

Andy

Go to this thread here:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=115
Look for your post, then look for my reply.

I also PM'ed you in October. You never answered. If you put a comment on your web site, be sure to add "Curator of the Cups and Balls Museum, World's Largest Collection of Cups and Balls."

Of all the people on this forum, I am the one most likely to purchase a set of cups from you. But I can't do it if you don't answer your messages.

BTW, Andy is right about the size of these cups. They are about 1 mm larger inside diameter than a Gazzo cup, and about .5 mm taller. That's using the new style Gazzo for comparison. The old style Gazzo is taller. The cups shown on Andy's web site appear to be brass instead of copper. The Gazzo cups are almost 50% heavier than the Chinese cups.

We discussed this type of cup at length when they first showed up on eBay for about $49.00.

There are several things to be borne in mind when selecting a cup to do street work with. One is price. The Chinese cups are definitely cheaper. But that's not the whole story. If you get brass cups, there is another factor that is very critical, and it's also critical to a certain degree with copper ones. That is how often were the cups annealed during the spinning process. When Perigee spun brass items for Danny Dew, there were many of them that were not annealed properly. That's why original brass PF/DD candy bowls without cracks in the rims are quite rare. It may be why PF/DD brass cups without stress cracks are somewhat rare.

I know that Willi Seidl used to anneal his copper cups quite carefully. So does Jim Riser, and so does Jake Zimmerman.

Stress cracks from a lack of proper annealing will show up after frequent use of the props. They can be "awakened" by pounding the cups on a table or beating them with a wand, or even by rough transport.

Cheap cups are false economy, especially if your livelihood depends on them.

Are Andy's cups the ones made by Magic Makers?

They appear to be. Andy hasn't answered any of my e-mails or the private messages I sent him back in October. The measurements are spot on.

Hi Bill. Can you tell me where I can get these cups at that price? Please don't berate me for looking to buy cheap tack. I know I'm doing wrong!

Previous to this post of Andy's I've only seen Penguin selling those kind of cups (at a considerably higher price)

TIA

G.

They show up on eBay quite regularly. I'll see if I can find the invoice for them and I'll PM the seller's name to you. He runs a bedroom magic shop, if you know what I mean! He orders dozens of each item from MM, then sends out lists to former customers.

Thanks you Squire!

I may have been in error about the price of these cups. I paid $99 for the first ones I got; however, I have gotten offers from various dealers for a much lower price on them. I paid a lot less for the other set.

Bill, I apologize if you've been asked this before...

Assuming that cup size and manufacturer is not a factor, in your opinion what is the least amount of money you can spend and still end up with a quality set of cups?

#2, same question, but now you are specifically looking for a large 'street' style cup.

Remember please, the LEAST amount of money, yet still ending up with a quality product. (If it makes it any easier to play along, my idea of 'cheap quality' would be cups that could take regular street abuse for, say, 2 or 3 years -- long enough for the worker to save up for the $700.00 set.)

An extra round of thanks for providing links to your 2 choice picks.

Thanks very much in advance for playing along...

The problem is not so much price as it is on some other factors:
1) Quality of materials
2) Skill of the manufacturer
3) The detail of the work
4) The level of the purchase

The quality of the materials includes the purity and/or durability of the alloy used in the cup and the thickness of it. If you assume that you are using .050 copper, then the raw materials for the cups will be relatively costly. The cost will depend on how the manufacturer buys the copper. Another factor in the purity of the alloy is how soft or hard the metal is. Also the homogeneity of the material is important. Many sets of cups that I have purchased do not patinize well. It is as if the metal had patches of copper that were separated by patches that were partially copper and partially some other metal, such as zinc or tin.

The skill of the manufacturer comes in with respect to how consistent the cups are and how well the cups fit. There are some really great spinners who make cups that won't nest well.

The third factor is the detail of the work. This includes how much polishing goes into the cups as well as how clean the cups are when you get them. It also includes any kind of special finish or treatment that is given to them. A set of clear-coated antique bronze cups will cost more than a set of plain copper ones.

The level of the purchase factors in the dealer's discount. If all of your sales are direct, you can sell your cups for less than you would if you have to plan to discount them for the dealers.

I think RnT 2 has actually found the level that it will cost to have a decent cup that will take what a street performer would call normal use. These are the cups that form their "Main Stream" series. They are brush finished. Polishing accounts for about half of the labor, if not more, in making a set of cups. These cups start at $89.95 and go up to about $150. The elimination of the polishing helps with this. Normally, cups of this type cost much more.

As far as jumbo street cups are concerned, it's going to take something in the neighborhood of $250 to come up with a decent, sturdy jumbo cup. Jim Riser and RnT 2 have both manufactured good cups in this price range. The Cellini cups from Zauberladen Zürich fall into this price range, as well. They are small jumbos, but will take a baseball if you select the balls carefully. And they are brush finished to save you a bit of labor.

So, figure about $100 or so for a set of normal cups -- cheapest price and about $250 or so for a set of jumbos.

Bear in mind that the Phoenix cups came out with a retail price of $200.00 for the ones with the certificates. You could get them without the certificates for about $100. Or you could get seconds for a lot less. These will take a lot of abuse.

Morrissey cups are an interesting situation. The fellows at Morrissey are excellent spinners, but they have targeted the low priced cup market. In doing so, they have had to remain competitive with Uday and Bazar de Magia. They have done this by simplifying certain techniques, such as the way they roll the lip of the cup, and by using slightly thinner copper than they used to. They don't generally do brass cups -- the annealing problems are huge with brass. I'd like to see them make some of their really big cups in copper. But that's just me, I suppose.

I don't like to not be able to give a more definite answer than this. The factors are quite complex. When you figure that the really big cost is labor, that's where the Chinese cups beat us. It's not that they aren't capable of doing flawless cups. They just need someone who really knows how the machines work to tell them what they need to do.

Well, I have to say it hard to answer your points when my previous post got EDITED. If it did not, you would have read that I wanted to say there. I cannot see the point of replying to any post if it just get chopped up.

Email: I didn't get your email. I don't check this mail box as I didn't really know I had one. Please use my website but I will try to reply from now on. I click on the box just before and it was empty.

CUPS: I don't who MM are. Mine are made by ME in China because that's where I live. Mine a pretty tough, as I am one of the few cups and balls performers who also does juggling moves with them (see my promo vid or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtvTNsVPMJ8 ), moves which won me the Macau Magic Champion (ok not a huge country)

I was also use to manufacteur three different cases specifically with cups and balls in mind. Also see my website for that design. It was an awesome case which could do drops and also the big hat load(s). I only mention it because of how its realted to c&b's......but please note it has been dis-continued.

Price and Quality: there is a lot of designs and prices out there and mine are made for the budget magician. Not all of us can afford the high end ones and I don't claim that they are the best but a cups is a cup. I have dedicated a huge part of my magic to the cups and balls and have thought up some new things and routines for it including the chop wand and the floating wand gimmic and cool one handed hat load. I understand the American culture of high quality and respect that. People here are not as rich and demand cheaper products. Life's a balance.

Review: I've had a few orders shipped to the states recently and will get them reviewed here.

Size: Someone mentioned the size compared to Gazzo. Infact I don't know and have never seen the Gazzo cups but James James the pro street performer said they were bigger than his Gazzo cups, so that's what I based the comment on. Mine are 9.5 * 9.7cm.

Andy

The Gazzo cups (I have several sets of them) are not much smaller than your measurements.

I will order one of your sets from you.

BTW, I've seen your videos.

I can't find that set with the jumbo cups on your web site any more, so I have sent you an e-mail.

I found the link. I was having trouble with the page loading slowly. I have ordered a set and will give it an unbiased review when it arrives.

Andy, was the link to your website removed from here as well? There is nothing wrong with offering something of value for a discount price. I give Andy credit, he is not trying to claim his cups are equal to Gazzo's or any other cup for that matter, just claiming to offer value at rather low price. I am anxious to read Bill's review as he is rather objective in all his reviews.