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Joshua Quinn
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Quote:
On 2007-02-17 15:42, entity wrote:
I can't imagine that two Mentalists discovering the exact same device happened purely by accident,


Why on earth not? Some people here do have other interests outside of mentalism, you know. Smile

(Not that I think that makes it okay to sell the inferior ripoff.)

Joshua "Don't Ask How I Accomplish My PK Touches Routine" Quinn
Every problem contains the seeds of its own solution. Unfortunately every problem also contains the seeds of an infinite number of non-solutions, so that first part really isn't super helpful.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2007-02-17 12:36, shrink wrote:
Sorry.


Thank you. Your previous post was very rude and addressed none of my questions.

Quote:
The circuitry was changed to improve the vibration heads and include two heads with equal vibration. The heads are more consistent and stronger. The keyfob was also silenced. The newer cases are also custom made and are a different colour from the standard. They are opaque black instead of smokey transparent grey


You are talking about your product here? If so, am I correct in inferring that you took an existing product and had the manufacturer make these changes for you?

Quote:
We have an agreement with the manufacturer they will not make any modified versions for anyone else. 7th Sense and 8th Sense are custom jobs specifically for the mentalism market. You can only get them through us. Ive been their customer for nearly three years. They also I believe hold a patent on the technology.


If this is so, it sounds as though you were double-crossed by your manufacturer, and not by Biss.

Quote:
However the main compnents are the same except ours has been subtly modified for improved performance.


So Biss's unit is not quite "off the shelf"?

From what I can understand from your posts, then, you took an off-the-shelf product and had the manufacturer modify it for you. You had a non-competition agreement with the manufacturer. James Biss made a deal with your manufacturer to make different modifications (which you believe to be inferior to yours), in violation with the agreement that you had with your manufacturer. Are these the relevant facts?

John

PS I am not taking sides. You understand your own position very well, but much of what you have written has been vague or internally contradictory. I am really trying hard to understand the content of your complaint.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Jeff J.
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At first I thought shrink was being sarcastic when he said that the item in question was the "OYSTER DUO SEX TOY", but after seeing a picture of both, they indeed are the exact same unit with the exact same attachments.

That begs a question that I won't even touch! Smile
Jim-Callahan
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James, said his wife felt the signal even though he was outside in the driveway.

If she can be happy why not the rest of you fellows.

J ack

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“I can make Satan’s devils dance like fine gentlemen across the stage of reality”.
The Doctor
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Quote:
On 2007-02-17 18:26, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
James Biss made a deal with your manufacturer to make different modifications (which you believe to be inferior to yours), in violation with the agreement that you had with your manufacturer. Are these the relevant facts?



John, you should re-read. Shrink has said that Biss's unit has NO modifications to the standard off the shelf unit. What is so contradictory or difficult to understand about that? I suggest reading Baxter's last post. That fellow understands.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2007-02-17 19:04, The Doctor wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-02-17 18:26, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
James Biss made a deal with your manufacturer to make different modifications (which you believe to be inferior to yours), in violation with the agreement that you had with your manufacturer. Are these the relevant facts?

John, you should re-read. Shrink has said that Biss's unit has NO modifications to the standard off the shelf unit. What is so contradictory or difficult to understand about that? I suggest reading Baxter's last post. That fellow understands.

Actually he contradicted himself. Read the quoted material.

John


Posted: Feb 17, 2007 7:20pm
------------------------------------------
Quote:
On 2007-02-17 19:17, Xiqual wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-02-17 18:39, shrink wrote:
Im sorry your ability to reason is limited I can't help you there. Its all in the thread. This about ripp offs nothing more.

Murphies seem to understand and one or two other dealers. Perhaps you should consult them. Maybe they are better than me trying to reason with someone with limited ability.

After all I am only the creator. In this case the dealers will be the judge.




These are the skills that corporations pay to learn? Fraud.

John's points are totally accurate. You come here and accuse people but you won't answer accusations that are well founded.

When someone asks you reasonable questions you insult them by saying they have "limited reasoning capabilities"

From what I see, John's reasoning capabilities seem to be the best on this thread.
Using Murphy's magic as a reference of ethical standard is ridiculous. They just
don't want the hassle.

James

You misunderstand me, James. I am not making points; I am trying to get clarification on what is being claimed.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
The Doctor
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Quote:
On 2007-02-17 19:19, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-02-17 19:04, The Doctor wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-02-17 18:26, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
James Biss made a deal with your manufacturer to make different modifications (which you believe to be inferior to yours), in violation with the agreement that you had with your manufacturer. Are these the relevant facts?



John, you should re-read. Shrink has said that Biss's unit has NO modifications to the standard off the shelf unit. What is so contradictory or difficult to understand about that? I suggest reading Baxter's last post. That fellow understands.


Actually he contradicted himself. Read the quoted material.

John


I have. Seems perfectly clear to me. Tell you what, why don't you tell me what is so contradictory? I'm thick you see.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
]

I have. Seems perfectly clear to me. Tell you what, why don't you tell me what is so contradictory? I'm thick you see.


I see where I misread. I was mistaken.

But why are you being provocative? I have not accused you of being thick. It is odd for me, as I have not taken sides on any of the issues, but have only tried to figure out the exact content of Shrink's complaint.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Tony Iacoviello
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John:

I feel that the application of the device as a remote queuing system for use in mentalism is outside the standard use of the product. This application is, or was Shrink's intellectual property. I say was, because earlier today he posted it and put it in the public domain. What is still his intellectual property are the codes he developed and his routines.

If James has discovered a different use for the product, it would be a different story. But what he found was the same use for a product, and that use and product were already marketed.

Shrink marketed the product several years ago as 7th Sense, and an updated version is called 8th Sense, it is currently on the market.

Tony
The Doctor
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Sorry John, I thought I was being facetious not provocative. I thank you for admitting your mistake.
shrink
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Tony

Its pretty simple

I posted up the origins of 7th Sense so that the community may be protected from a bad copy of the 7th sense. If anyone is allowed to take an off the shelf product and rip off an existing marketed product then likewise anyone can share that info with the rest of the community right?

7th sense is still mine and the new model with have further modifications that will make even better for the performer. I do this in the interest of helping people make the right choice for them.

They now have the choice of buying the custom product that does the right job or they can buy a sex toy at the going rate for a sex toy. Or they can pay three times that price and call it a Telsa Vision.

Its all about free choice right? tell me which would you choose?
Tony Iacoviello
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Shrink

I wish that none of this had ever happened.
You were wronged, plain and simple.


Tony
shrink
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Tony

I have always went out of my way to give the best quality I could to my customers. And by and large they always support me.

It has saddned me that this event has taken place. But I would rather tip my sources and protect future products from being butchered by unethical people.

I hope they are left with truck loads of sex toys. Tipping the source was the only ethical route to take to prevent profiteering from this controversy.

Lets hope this puts a stop to this particular person.
Dr Spektor
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For the poster who asked "whats da big deal its like having the choice between e.g. Wizard's PK Ring and Black's Pk ring" - yes indeed... go do some searches...

Clearly, I can see why Shrink's posts read full of anger- well, he probably is angry since he considers himself being robbed of his rights. I don't think things would be held up legally - but again, in the magic community, there is an expectation dealers will attempt to do the right thing... however, there is a nice thread in the Right or Wrong forum on this topic as well - where I have talked to a few dealers at magic shops who basically state since their customers can't afford certain items, they feel obligated to carry the cheaper version... yup, tis true. Not all dealers - but welcome to the path to hell is paved with good intentions (or a greedy intention reframed in the mind to be a noble one)...

I personally still want to hear from James Biss. He was posting here before - I cannot see why he cannot just come out and explain things.

As for Quinn asking why couldn't two mentalists come up with this indy - I bet they could - we often do... however, somewhere in this thread or another someone implied Biss actually either used a 7th Sense or was asking about it before he came out with Tesla...then seemed to have forgotten this... who knows. If I had the original device, I likely would have thought of using it more as an emotion transmitter in a red-light mentalism show vs. a thumper - but one neat thing - I'll never think of of a thumper the same way (Hey Quinn, how do you do your PK touches????)

Yukity yuk.
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espmagic
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So, then, a simple solution would to be to put all of this information in front of a lawyer...are there no lawyers who are mentalists? (Jokes aside). And, to predict the answer to this question, I believe the answer will be: "No, none that care enough to get involved in the name calling or back biting that has gone on for far too long in this thread".

After all, the bottom line would be that if Shrink (nice to see you back; wish it was under better circumtances) had an *enforceable* case against Biss then he would follow it up legally, no? And if Biss had grounds to complain *legally* about the accusations then he would follow it up appropriately, no?

All of the mud flinging gets *us* no where, and simply exercises the lungs of those who WANT to !@#$% and moan...and, FYI, I just purchased 8th Sense.

John, see you on Tuesday, right?

Lee
AJX
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Am I right in thinking that this is an argument between grown men about who has the rights to modifying a sex toy ?
I can hear those new to the art tip toeing quietly away never to return right now.
salsa_dancer
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I can't see why this is going on so long. James obviously took another person's idea and ran with it for profit. How can people defend that? I can see how people might get annoyed by Shrink's responses as he can be a little abrupt from time to time but that is only because he is Scottish and they have yet to grasp the finer points of diplomacy.

James Biss should just post an apology, move on and stop doing this in the future to avoid this; unless he enjoys the negative attention? I see him as like a little dog that enjoys the beatings that the master gives him because at least he is getting touched.

Personally, if I was shrink, I would find James Biss and shove all the heads of an 8th sense into him and demonstrate all the codes from his manual. Gotta love the wacky, wide, wide, world of mentalism.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*NEW* COMING SOON - 9th Sense. This monster is undistinguishable from the real thing - once inserted your partner can cue you with the most subtle of vibrations. The resulting leg buckling helps create a perfect comedy moment for the more light-hearted mentalist. Comes with a full supply of lubrication.
Harry Truman
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Lee, yours is the most sensible post I've seen in this topic so far.

Bravo.

Edit: salsa_dancer, classic. Still, I fail to see how it took me three minutes to write my original post.
"Man's highest reward for his dedication to the pursuit of excellence is not what he gets from it, but what he becomes through it."
shrink
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James blatantly takes Ideas and runs with them he loves the controversy this creates and the sales he makes from it. One of his "close mates" has told me this.

As for entering into legal battles that's just a joke. This isn't big business.

The price difference between 7th sense and the over inflated Oyster Duo called tesla is very little when you consider the difference in the package. Its only a few dollars. And we are considering at this moment making the new 7th sense upgradable with the 8th sense. (its not final)

The technology is a red herring. The fact is someones idea once again has been ripped off. Using the same maufacturer. Hocus Pocus pulled the Moveo PK sharpie last year in an instant. There were many more differences between that product and Osterlinds. Yet Paul pulled it.

Why has he not pulled Tesla?

Salsa the Scots are far more diplomatic than you southerners. We are welcome everywhere unlike you anglos. We could teach you a lot on how to get on with people. But that's another thread.
mota
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I used to make thumper units for blackjack teams. We actually considered the sex toy route but ended up using modified garage door openers and elastic ace bandages. Basic, but it played in casinos. There is little new in thumper units...though I had a few variations I'm sure they were all done before.

Biss should answer here...the accusations against him are reasonable enough to warrant a response. That is what he can do.

What can the manufacturer do?

The differences should be emphasized...how is this unit worth it? How is it different in a way that makes it better than an off-the-shelf item?

Why not just buy the egg?

How are the instructions different?

Make the difference obvious...if there is no significant difference then we are back to "I did it first" types of arguments.

Can this be settled by comparing products?
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