Well said. That is what I find funny. The majority of mentalists come from a magic background.

Absolutely they do, which is why it makes absolutely no sense to be condescending to another. There are just as many hack mentalists as there are bad magicians.

With the shift that is taking place right now there will be MORE hack mentalists soon enough.

True that.

Tell guys like Juan Tamariz, Lennart Green, or Rene Lavand that they just do "silly card tricks." Moreover, ask their audiences if they weren't completely captivated and astounded by their performances. I don't see one (mentalists or magicians) as inherently superior to the other. As far as the 'tude (if one exists), I would agree that perhaps it just goes with the territory of playing the part of a mentalist. That being said, I rather enjoy reading the posts from our members - good, bad, or indifferent. There's insight in all of them.

Ron

It does. Sad to say, but true.

R.S.,

I would not tell the above that theirs are "silly card tricks", because they aren't. These men have made what they do MAGIC. Can you say that much about most new and self proclaimed "magicians"? I think not.

j.

I would be just as quick to frown upon these same newbies for calling themselves a mentalist.

A professional clown may take offense to someone who only dresses the part and is not a clown. Wearing make-up does not make one a clown, card tricks do not make one a magician, etc. It is no different.

I don't feel that mentalists necessarily look down upon magic as an art, only upon the prowess of those performing said "art".

As many of us came from a magic background, we have had that experience, and it easily becomes sickening to find another killing it.

I hope this makes sense.

Sounds like the only thing we can all agree on is that EVERYBODY looks down on mimes.

--Josh

They're not all that short, Josh


I couldn't agree with you more Dr. It's almost as if the performing trend is going round in a small circle, if you look at the kinds of performances put on over the past couple of hundred years.

they do not complain either...Have you ever heard one?



Clowns look down b/c someone is not fully portraying their art. Same for Magicians and mentalists. This is all subjective to the professional (or more experienced in that art)
Newbies sometimes kill it b/c they do not completely understand, not out of ignorance. Experience and guidance from others helps this. Magicians Helping magicans...whether their mentalists/clowns/.... we are all performers that want others to represent our art in a good light.


whew....hope that all made since.

A small percentage of outstanding magicians entertain the public and build an appetite for "traditional" magic. However, the 95%+ of people performing magic turn off the public to magic through their amateurish performance. As a result, almost all of the public recoils when someone begins to present a card or coin trick.

I'm afraid the same phenomenon is now developing with respect to psychic entertainment. Now many unskilled, inexperienced "performers"--many of them who bombed as amateur and would-be semi-professional magicians--are trying to present mentalism....and presenting it poorly.

Leave the performance of mentalism to very experienced psychic entertainers. Don't ruin this field, too, through poor performance skills and too-frequent demonstrations of what should be special mysteries rather than everyday puzzles.

I can’t help but ask this question – When did Mentalism become the “New Frontier” of Magic? How long ago did Dunninger Perform? Did not Robert-Houdin perform a mind-reading routine with his young son? When did magic performance and mentalism spilt into polar opposites?

I have only come across the hostility and arrogance on Magic Café Mentalism forum. I suppose that is why I spend less time here and more time with my nose in books. I really wish to participate in these forums and I come here with optimism, but out of all the Magic Café’s forum sections, Mentalism is the one where I feel the “coldest” reception. Maybe it’s because I am a Magician that performs mental magic in my routine and I don’t claim to a mentalist? Maybe its my candid attitude by saying what I mean and standing by my convictions. I unfortunately do see a correlation between Mentalists looking down at Magicians and Magicians looking down at clowns. Who do clowns look down on? Mimes? I don’t have this attitude by the way – I see all categories of magic as an art. There are Sculptures, Painters, Sketch Artists, etc…

Mystic1 – I do agree with your observation that 95% of the persons attempting to perform magic do so poorly. But this isn’t a Mental Magic problem alone - it spans the spectrum. Where an experienced Mentalist can cringe when they see someone follow a book test with sponge balls, I also get that sick feeling in my stomach when I see 100’s of kids download the latest hot magic effect and expose their horrible performance on the internet, such as You Tube.

I am an experienced Magician. I never demonstrate an effect until I am sure I can perform it flawlessly. I don’t think too-frequent demonstrations of a metal bending effect are any different than performing the Zombie. We stick to the golden rule by never repeating a trick for the same audience so what is too-frequent? To me that depends on how many shows I perform per month. I am not showing the same routine for the same audience over and over again.

I may have taken this the wrong way and correct me if I did, but you’re your statement, “Leave the performance of mentalism to very experienced psychic entertainers” sounds a bit arrogant.

Whenever I meet magicians in person, I have never experienced anything less than genuine interest in the Art and a willingness to share stories and compare techniques. When I joined the I.B.M. Ring in Nürnberg, Germany, My main motivation was to practice my German and to make friends with common interests. Every single member of that Ring was open and helpful and I contributed much in return.

I think the real problem is the internet. No matter what the interest, Magic, Soccer or Stamp Collecting – you are going to come across the ones with superior attitudes. Hiding behind a computer monitor makes some very brave and unfortunately very rude. Another problem on these forums is that we cannot judge the tone of a post very well because we cannot see the persons body language or hear the tone in his/her voice. A sincere comment may be misconstrued as sarcasm or a personal attack.

I fell into that trap on a thread I had started a few months back – miscommunication and miswritten comments blew the thread way out of proportion and it brought out the worst in some members. I got some nasty Personal Messages, but I also got many supportive messages as well – but that is water under the bridge and I move on with experience and knowledge.

I think if the active members in this forum are aware of the problem – that’s half the battle.

George:

Your reception was warm and friendly compaired to that which some of us coming from the "psychic" field recieved. (No, I'm not joking!)

Everyone here has different opinons, some are more outspoken than others, some you will agree with, others, you wont. But if you give it a bit of time, you will find friends and people to exchange ideas with, nonjudgmental and very good thinkers. You may also find a lot of value in what those you disagree with say.

You are correct, there are elitists in every walk of life, the mystery arts is no different.

Welcome to the club.

Tony

I empathize if you say some welcomes here were less friendly than mine. I see that the passion for the art outweigh any elitists opinion here.

Thank You for the Welcome!