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SeaDawg
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With the ever increasing prevalence of really sick freaks preying on our children I beleive we really have to be careful.

A year ago a 12 year old girl was kidnapped and killed by a "family friend" not a more than 3 miles from our house. My very athletic, rugby playing daughter was shaken to the core since this girl had attended her juniour high...

Anything we can do to protect our children from the sickos of the world is to be done, also an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. The photos on a web site may be innoucous looking and harmless to 99.5% of the population, but there is a very small sick fringe minority that will feed off of these.... It is a sad commentary about the sad state of affairs in the world.
Crazy people take the psycho-path thru the forest...
Tony James
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Many photos are disturbing in a way and the children are looking right at you with almost adult expressions.

In the UK any school or organisation seeing these would report them.

Are we to understand that in the USA pictures like these are generally normal and acceptable?
Tony James

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SeaDawg
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There was a thread awhile back that had to do with a performers daughters stage attire, and whether she was tarted up like a "Prosti-tot".

I am not a prude, but when it comes to the potential "Sexplotation" of children we need to make sure we are so far from the line that we can't even see it.
Crazy people take the psycho-path thru the forest...
Tony James
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SeaDwag

Is "Prosti-tot". the generally used term in the USA?

canadian magicians.

Is this term "Prosti-tot". used in your neck of the woods/

How about elsewhere?
Tony James

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SeaDawg
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Tony, it was a term I heard bandied about in response to this thread...

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=17

Don't for a moment think my life expectancy would be more than a few seconds if my wife ever even thought I suggested dressing my daughter like this for an act...

Just the views from my house for what it is worth...
Crazy people take the psycho-path thru the forest...
kimmo
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I can't say I've ever heard the term. There was an eighties kids T.V. show called minipops which sparked a controversy because it featured pre-teen children made up to look like pop stars. Complaints flooded in and newspapers ran campaigns against it. The show was taken off the air and never repeated. They did show clips of it on a recent clip show about kids T.V.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKcmHwjfCbg

It is pretty creepy and I can see why it got complaints. As far as website pictures go I would err on the side of caution and leave out any images that could be viewed as provocative in any way. I do have one audience shot left on my site. It was taken at my son's 4th Birthday party (he's 11 now).

http://users.tinyonline.co.uk/jkimmo/Party_Planning.htm

I know all the parents of these kids and had permission to use the picture, so I thought it was ok. Even one complaint could tarnish a performers reputation, so I wouldn't take the risk.
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Jonathanmc
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To my knowledge the term "prostitot" was originated by my friend Natasha. She is the formar principle of one of the most elite private schools in the North East.

While the term is not in wide spread use, the idea is. When we who are or have been educators see children in clothing that is totally innapropriate to anything other than the world's oldest profession (not magic)we find ourselves in a bind. If we say anything we are simply dirty teachers reading something into the clothing of an innocent child. If we don't surely some parent will and we will be asked why we didn't say anything to begin with.
ninjaduffy
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I have an enhanced police check, so here in the UK I place "CRB checked" in my adverts. People comment on it being a good idea. I have one due to the fact that my REAL job (lol) is working with kids in care.

Easy to get. Is their anything like this in other countries?


Kev
Tony James
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Kev

We've been trying to establish this both here and in the Paedophilia thread. All we've come up so far are dodgy pictures.

Cross check with Paedophilia and It seems there are checks of varying quality in the USA and Canada - read them to get a flavour - but probably not as thorough as the UK Enhanced CRB check. That searchs deep.

It seems driven in the USA by socirty rather than local government who wait watching till it's vote winning matter when they may or may not ade in.

Kev - I've been saying that in the UK it's local government driven. Requirements (not law) when employing entertainers direct and trying to impose those same requirements anywhere where they have an inflyence - public places, halls other organisers.

from that the rewuirements begin to become standard practise and everyone starts to build them in to their contarcts.

Like Public Liability Insurance qv.
Tony James

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SeaDawg
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Tony,
having police background chcks done can only be a good thing.

Maybe I am a little touchy aboutthe subject but if you do a search on "Pickton" Pig farm murders... a trial that just got underway here in canada you might get a better insight into my anger...

My wife's sister's husbands sister is confirmed as one of those 'whose' remains were found on the farm.
Invidiviuals like this casue nothing but pain and anguish amongst all thsoe around. ( FWIW Pickton would never have passeda backgound check).
Crazy people take the psycho-path thru the forest...
Smarty Pants
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Yes. That is pretting poor taste to have on a website in the current climate.
Tony James
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I don't think the source of the photos is relevant. It's what's there which matters and this is a very good example of how not to do things.

In the UK any school, nursery or similar institution picking up on a website with pictures like those would a few years ago have felt uncomfortable and have discussed their discomfort with their colleagues at their perdiodic meetings.

Result? The 'offending' entertainers might have wondered why their phone went quiet.

Today, those same teachers would be reaching for a phone to the local authority (government) education department (to whom they are responsible).

Result? Probably various organisations including the police would be informed and the 'offending' entertainers put on a 'watch' list (if not called for interview) - and that would almost certainly quieten their phone as far as schools are concerned.

The perceived danger and consequent sesitivity far outweighs the probable reality but that's what happens when a subject becomes hyped.
Tony James

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Skip Way
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Thought Police! By George, it's time for the Orwellian Thought Police!! I'm all for protecting each child to the utmost of our ability. When it comes to naming, tracking and restricting known and proven pedophiles and sex offenders, you'll have my support. But, if we continue to bend over and allow bureaucrats to target safe, skilled, innocent performers because of assumed thought crimes...that's going too far. This is just ludicrous. These are commercially available costumes that are far less revealing than your basic swim suits. Maybe not the best taste for a performer's website...but this condemnation is outrageous. Good grief!
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Tony James
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You may find this hard to believe but if you did use pictures of children in swimming costumes the authorities in the UK would descend upon you.

You are prohibited from taking pictures of a school Christmas nativity play where the children are swathed from head to toe, let alone schools sports days when the children are in shorts.

Other people's perceptions and concerns impact on us.

However silly it may seem that's what this is all about and why we are discussing it.

We're not falling out about it. Just trying to understand the differences which seem to be:

The UK has gone overboard avoiding anything whatever involving child images and associated child pornography

The USA appears not to take these matters so seriously.

Would you agree?
Tony James

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Skip Way
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No offense, Tony, but if this is the case, then thank God I live in the United States where, unless you're a Duke Lacrosse Player, you're considered relatively innocent until you commit an actual crime. In fact, the Duke Lacrosse case is a PERFECT example of this very issue! When we allow the "government" to stomp on our individual rights in the name of protecting someone else's rights...no matter how justified it may seem...we each surrender our freedoms without a fight. The Duke boys stood up for their rights in the face of overwhelming public condemnation...and now the fool prosecutor who trampled their rights into the ground for political gain is facing, hopefully, criminal charges.

I am not a pedophile. I would turn my own brother in immediately and without the slightest of concern if I suspected him of anything so heinous. I refuse to bow gracefully to an overzealous watchdog substructure and go on the defensive simply because I'm a children's entertainer. If this happens here...I will be at the forefront of a grassroots campaign to let our elected officials know it's B.S.. Have you written your representatives...or are you simply throwing your hands and freedom into the air?
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.

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Tony James
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None taken Skip.

You're right. It's something of minefield over here. Hopefully the worst excesses will pan out eventually and it will settle down again. But it will never be the same again.

Far too much has comeout about abuse during the 1940s to 1990s involving respected adults in almost all communities. At least this was historical but then along comes the internet making images so available.

Hopefully the fear it engenders will subside to a less hysterical level.

But it doesn't help matters when a local entertainer goes to goal (last week here) and everyone is looking sideways at enetrtainers. The phone is very quiet at present.
Tony James

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Steven True
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Well I will join in, maybe I shouldn't but here goes anyway. "I", meaning in my own opinion, feel that any pictures on your web sites should "ALWAYS" be in the best of taste. What I think is sad is that we have these conversations that go on in our society theses days. It is a sad state of affairs that we feel like we as entertainers even really need to worry about it. When doing a show with the prfessionalism that should be used is used then we should never worry about anyone thinking or questioning our way with people. I came from the old school where the magician was dressed in a very professional manner as well as the assistants. I have never been a fan of entertainers that used scantaly clad ladies in their shows. Please do not take that as me saying you are a bad person if you do it is just that I chose not to do that. When I work with kids I make sure that the children are treated with respect and never grab a child or hold them in any inappropriate manner. I am working on a new website that will have all of my info and it will have pictures of kids as well as adults and myself on it doing different things in the show. I know we have to be careful and all but come on now, it has got to the point of us being scared to even go and do a show sometimes because we have heard that someone has touched a child or done anything bad to them. We are entertainers and that is what we are. We should appraoch it with the professionalism that we, should be saying, do on a daily basis. Well that was my 2 cents and I just hope I did not read this thread wrong because if I did then I just posted this wrongly.

Happy Magic

Steven
Rupert Bair
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C-R-A-Z-Y

My site has very few pictures, and I get more work from other online sites (advertising my services usually with no link to my site!) than my own site.

However, I show little photos not due to fears of a pedophile witch hunt, not even my Dorian Gray complex...but because redesigning the site Is the least thing I need to do right now!

I think it’s become pathetic. Children are the true judge of our shows! I remember seeing a children’s entertainer competition, and many more since where the children found the act mildly amusing; yet he won because of his ad-libs and magicians bits for the adults. Proof is in a child’s smile! A Kodak moment of a room full of kids all smiling and laughing is the greatest proof we have (along with testimonials and references) to show how good our services really are.

Although if I did have my site full of pictures that had absolutely no harm at all, and if somebody where to turn to me after looking at it or my promotional material and raise an issue over pictures of fully clothed children (with permission to use such) I would not battle there insecurities, the first words would be sorry but you'll have to find someone else.

P.C has gone mad, and we are letting it.
Tony James
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This is the sad part Matt. The subject has a momentum of its own.

If you use pictures of children you raise doubts in the minds of some. Speaking to a school recently they told me who they use - he has no website and no brochure and that makes them feel comfortable.

Sadly over here any pictures of children are deemed unsuitable by some.

You won't know, no one will even contact you - you'll simply not get the business.
Tony James

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Steven True
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Amen Matt.

Happy Magic
Steven
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