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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Knots and loops » » "Vishnu Rope Mystery" Who else does it ??? (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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vinsmagic
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Just to throw a curve ball you guys shouild check out steve Bedwells rope routine on his dvd I believe no jacket required...... he has a very unusual move that no one has did before..Al call me ,,,,
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John Long
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This discussion and other threads about Shigeo Takagi, and Vishnu, reminded me of a cut and restored effect that truly fooled me, even after having seen many cut and restored effects. I saw (only) demonstrated as part of the Panama Rope trick by Jim Gerrish in the Wiz Kid's Rope Magic DVD (http://www.magicnook.com ), but it looked great.

The method appears to be a modification of the method used in the Hindu Turban Mystery(see Fulve's), but involves dragging the rope over the hand to produce a loop in the middle of the rope instead of just grabbing the appropriate sections of the rope (thus it has some similarities to the Vishnu). Since the move is done well before the cut is made, it looks very clean, and very convincing.

Although similar to the Hindu Turban Mystery, to me, the handling is significantly improved. I thought I had seen the method someplace else, but I did not find it in the Ency of Rope Tricks.

Spellbinder, can you tell us if this method has a name, and who the inventor is? Was this method part of the Ted Collin's original Panama Rope trick?

John

Posted: Feb 3, 2007 10:07pm
I found it! (in both senses, some of you will know what I mean)

The essence of the method of the cut & restore is the "second method" in Wilson's Complete Course in Magic. I'd not seen this demonstrated before, and did not immediately recognize it when I saw Jim perform it.

Al: Take a look a Wilson's method, and tell me if it wouldn't make for a cleaner approach to the Vishnu method?

Still, but to whom does this method get credited to?

John
Al Angello
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John
I pride myself on knowing the ropes, and having the a decent reference library on rope magic, but I do not have the Marc Wilson book, and I'm not as knowledgeable as you, or the Spellbinder on this subject. The Magiguy did mentioned that a few Takagi tapes are still abvilible at Stevens. Just how much does the Marc Willson book cost?

Godfather
Thanks for the tip it looks like I will have to get the Steve Bedwell routine also.
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leondo
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Al,
The excellent second method described it the Wilson book is also descrbed in Stewart James "Encyclopedia Of Rope Magic" and actually more describes the "dragging the rope over hand" handlng described by John above.

The Tow-Way Cut (Eddie Joseph) pg 50-51

Enjoy,
Ted L
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Thanks Ted
That trick in the Stewart James book is somewhat similar, except in the Vishnu trick all of the right hand moves are done with scissors, and the cut is made without any hesitation, right before your eyes. Seeing that trick proves to me that Takagi was the master of that move.

John
I have sent an email to the Spellbinder for more clarification.
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John Long
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Ted

The Two-way cut in ERT ends up at a similar place as the method described in Mark Wilson's book, but the method of getting to that place is dramatically different. In my opinion, it is the method of creating the "bite" that makes the method in Wilson's book (and that demo'ed in the Wiz kids dvd) very deceptive.

The method I'm talking about in these two sources, involves a flowing motion, as the rope is pulled over the hands (that is what reminded me of how Al described the Vishnu by Takagi). Further, by doing a "feignt" first (showing that you really got the middle of the rope), and then the set-up, makes for a very compelling effect.

Al: I'm surprised you never got Wilson's book. It is an excellent book for beginners(not implying that you are at this time, but when you were); it has broad coverage (but comparatively little on rope). I use stuff from it(Kellar string trick, and sponge balls) for my hospital ministry. I has cards, coins, close-up, stage illusions, and easy exceptionally well graphically laid out.

You can get a copy from Amazon for about $10. But make sure you get the more recent edition which has an extra chapter (Reputations Makers), and brings the total number of pages from about 470, up to 503).

John
Al Angello
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John
Now you have my attention, for $10 I look at it myself.

I use the Karl Fulves, Vishnu routine, and the Shigeo Takagi's technique, I especially like the way in the Vishnu routine you make the move twice.
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You awakened me from a "long winter's nap" and got me scrounging around in my library only to discover that I, Phineas Spellbinder, do NOT know everything. However, here's what I DO know.

I only vaguely recalled the Vishnu Rope Trick and had to go look it up to refresh my memory of it. Years ago, Jim Gerrish and I learned the Panama Rope from Ted Collins himself and in discussing it afterwards, discovered that the first rope cut is never described in print, in Tarbell nor even in Ted's own directions that he sold with the rope. It was only something he taught his students. It is NOT the same as Eddie Joseph's Two Way Cut, and I can't find the exact method, as Jim Gerrish shows (but does not explain) in the Wiz Kid Rope Magic DVD. As far as I know, it was Ted's private method and we both agreed long ago that it was the absolute cleanest move in the business and it was a waste of time learning any of the others. That's why I don't recall the Bob Ellis Vishnu method, because it got carried away with scissor moves which are totally unnecessary in the Collins' move. Ted's move is so clean, it looks as if you are finding the center of the loop and cutting the rope in the center, even from just a few inches away. I have even fooled myself with the move so that I had to peek to make sure I wasn't actually cutting the rope in the center.

So that explains why I peeked in on this thread early on and decided I had nothing to offer, since it was all about the Vishnu trick and I already have my favorite method of doing the cut and restored rope, with or without the Panama Rope ending, which everyone seems to think is about making those loops and cutting the rope into four parts. Not for me. The first cut is the best, and the rest is just icing on the cake.

One more of Ted's subtleties enters the trick when you are tying the first know (that eventually will fly off the rope at the finish). I have never seen that subtlety in print, either.

So unless someone can locate Ted's method of the first cut and the tying knot subtlety somewhere, I have to assume that it is his invention.

I realize this doesn't answer your Vishnu Rope question, but I always assumed that Tarbell had named Bob Ellis as his source.
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Al Angello
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Thank you professor. Now you can go watch the Superbowl.
Al Angello
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John Long
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Thanks Spellbinder.

I too could not find this in Tarbell, Fulves, or ERT, but the 2'nd cut & restore method in Wilson's book does allow for exactly the same look(if not the same method itself) as I saw on the Wiz Kids Rope DVD (it was so clean looking, I had to stop it frame by frame, and eventually noticed a slight, slight, slight "discrepancy" that ultimately led me to recreating the method on my own. Latter, last night, I found my "recreation" in Wilson's book. Unfortunately, Wilson doesn't give too many sources for the stuff in his book - the only complaint I have about that book.

I too tie "pop-off" knots for all 3 knots in the Panama Rope trick, it is a very stunning ending for the effect that is not present in the descriptions of PRT that I've seen. The down side with PRT, is that there can be quite a wait before anything magical happens, and then BAM, BAM, BAM.

To that concern, I
1) magically produce the rope at the start,
2) turn the rope into a continuous circle of rope and
3) tell a story/message that parallels the actions in all of this.

Fun stuff!
John
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Unfortunately, I purchased the tiny book version of Wilson's Course and naturally misplaced the tiny thing. It's so small I have to read it with a magnifying glass, but now I have to go looking for the itty bitty book with a magnifying glass. It may turn up next spring, if I decide to do any Spring Cleaning.
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John Long
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I just lost the reply I tried to post, so I'll make this quick.

The method Spellbinder attributed to Ted Collins is not identical to that in Wilson's book. Close, but there is a simple modification that a avoids needing to ever let go of the ends, or place both ends in the same hand. At least that is true of the method that I worked out, which I think is identical to the Collin's method. I think this modification makes it look "fairer", and allows the movements to be more flowing(which is what got me to look further into this version), than the method in Wilson's book.

Wilson's method is what Daryl calls the Magicians Cut and Restored Rope, in V2 of his Expert Rope Magic DVD. Daryl doesn't give the source for this effect, but does mention that what he showed is "one version" of doing the Magicians Cut and Restored Rope, which implies that there are other "versions".

Maybe Spellbinder could talk to Ted Collins for clarification.


John
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Quote:
On 2007-02-04 22:32, John Long wrote:
Maybe Spellbinder could talk to Ted Collins for clarification.


Not without going into "séance" mode. Ted died in 1993. I guess I need to talk to his family about publishing his methods before they are forgotten.
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jolyonjenkins
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So where are we?
Is the Wizzkids version (which John finds so impressive - I haven't seen it) the same as Daryl's "Magician's cut" and the Wilson "second method"?
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Just for the record, it is NOT the Wiz Kid's method - implying that they originated it. It is the method all the Kids are taught to perform as being the best of the best (following Jim's Gerrish's philosophy). There is no question about it being Ted Collin's preferred method and very likely his creation as well. Those of us who were Ted's students would prefer that you call it the Collins' Method out of respect for him. If we later discover that it had another originator, we'll honor that person instead, but for now, Ted seems the only candidate.
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Al Angello
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Spellbinder
I love it when you get technical.
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jolyonjenkins
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Well, I've looked at the Vishnu method as Daryl demonstrates it, and of all the many methods he teaches, this seems one of the least convincing (at least, as he does it). If you slide the scissors half way down the rope, why not do the cut then, instead of taking the loop over to the other hand with the scissors and then cutting? The motions would have to be REALLY fast and fluid to make this one look good, Or so it seems to me.

Having got the Daryl DVD set, though, I'd like to cast a vote for what he calls Hindu Ring on Rope, basically a simplified version of one of the Stewart James Sefalaljia moves. Really fooled me first time, even though I know about Sefalaljia.
Jolyon Jenkins
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Rjenkins
I just looked at Daryl's Hindu Ring on Rope trick. What I want to know is what sort of venu could you perform such a trick in, and would anyone actually applaud you after doing this trick? I'm afraid nifty just isn't good enough for me to add it to my show.


As far as the Vishnu rope trick is concerned, I agree with you Daryl doesn't do it very well. Perhaps I will have to add it to all the other rope trick I promised to send you.
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John Long
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Quote:
So where are we?
Is the Wizzkids version (which John finds so impressive - I haven't seen it) the same as Daryl's "Magician's cut" and the Wilson "second method"?

I agree with Spellbinder, Ted Collins' method(which I saw demo'ed on a Wiz Kid Rope dvd) is not the same as the version of "Magician's Cut and Restore" presented by Daryl in his rope dvd. Daryl's method is, however, essentially the same as Wilson's "second method". I consider Collins' better than the Magicians Cut and Restore; it really fooled me, even after watching it several times. At this time, I would consider it the standard for a non-gimmicked, impromptu, cut and restored rope effect, by which others should be compared.

Possibly Collins' did for the Magician's Cut and Restore, what Al believes Takagi did for vishnu(and I agree, Daryl's presentation of Vishnu looked a little fishy as he flips the scissors over).

That said, I apologize for hijacking this thread, and hope that Spellbinder has the opportunity to publish "Collins' Cut and Restore".

Ahhh, isn't good to have some lively discussions on this Rope section of MC!

Knots Off
John
Quote:
On 2007-02-05 18:58, Al Angello wrote:
Rjenkins
I just looked at Daryl's Hindu Ring on Rope trick. What I want to know is what sort of venu could you perform such a trick in, and would anyone actually applaud you after doing this trick? I'm afraid nifty just isn't good enough for me to add it to my show.

Close up, and w/o Daryls "antics". I can see why it wouldn't fit in with your type of performances, and I'm not sure it would bring applause, but maybe more of an sense of "awe". As part of a series of related effects(possibly Deans Box), I like it. The newer edition of Wilson's Complete Course does this with a large safety pin instead of the knot. I think it looks better this way, but I alway prick myself doing it, and am too slow with it.

John
Al Angello
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John
You are right the right guy could use it for walkaround, but I need tricks that I can do on the move, with lots of laughs.
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