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Platt Inner circle New York 2012 Posts |
Is Derren Brown's practices unethical? I have no problem with magicians pretending they can truly break the laws of physics and make things float, or mentalists claiming they can truly read minds with ESP. Even Uri Gellar running around acting like he can truly bend spoons with his mind is fine with me. They're all obviously entertainers, challenging the world to take them seriously with an over-the-top, far out claim. It's all a bit of a game. But Derren Brown is another story.
Derren speaks as the voice of reason, as a social scientist of sorts. He debunks ESP and provides the world with the 'rational' answer that it's all done with the power of suggestion. But of course all of us at the Café know (I hope) Derren's supposed rational solutions contain as much bunk as anybody claiming true ESP. But he's convincing many that the power of suggestion is much, much more powerful than it truly is. Is this really any different than a scientist or researcher lying to the world and convincing them of non-truths? What happens when businesses, psychologists, professors, and even the medical community take this man for real, like a Malcom Gladwell. Well, it's happening. I know of one very large and respected business (I won't mention the name) that's using this YouTube video as practical case study. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyQjr1YL0zg You must watch it until the very end for it to make sense. Again, ethical?
Sugar Rush is here! Freakishly visual magic. http://www.plattmagic.com
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts |
I don't know if it's ethical, but it's sure entertaining!
You're absolutely correct, though, that this is dangerous stuff for anybody to take at face value and use to actually TEACH folks about the power of suggestion. I don't know how DB really did this effect, but to presume that it's exactly as he made it out to be at the end of the video is HIGHLY presumptuous and likely quite WRONG. Of course this is simply entertainment, and where the train goes off the tracks is when, as Platt has pointed out above, folks start reading more into it that is really there and taking it at it's face value. There's no reason to expect that we were duped from the get-go. The guys could have been stooges, there could have been hidden cameras and an envelope switch......it doesn't matter really, but it's certainly NOT safe to presume we have all the facts of the effect, or that we "know" how it's done just because DB told us! So......it's ethical, as long as the lay public isn't stupid about it? |
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Platt Inner circle New York 2012 Posts |
I somewhat agree that it's ethical as long as the lay person isn't stupid about it.
But I think the key question is who is Derren Brown? And what does it mean to be stupid? If he presents himself as an entertainer and then goes about his trickery...fine. But if he presents himself as an "honest, take me at face value, social scientist", which I believe he's beginning to do, there's a big problem. At that point, why shouldn't I or anyone take him as is? Much like James Fry's "Million Little Pieces." I, millions of others, and even Oprah believed his memoir to be real because it was sold as non-fiction. Does that make me and everyone else stupid? If we're to look at what Jame's Fry did as unethical, we certainly have to look at Derren Brown's behavior as unethical, too. No?
Sugar Rush is here! Freakishly visual magic. http://www.plattmagic.com
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ChristopherM Special user UK 844 Posts |
Certainly in the UK, of those who do know who he is, he is most commonly referred to as a magician (thankfully, and rightly). He offers so-called 'explanations', but the audience sadly DO buy it on the whole; I remember leaving the theatre hearing two teenage girls say to each other "I feel so stupid listening to him explaining it". Though in reality the explanation was false, they felt exactly the same as if they had been really cheated, violated, stupified. It's the same feeling one gets upon finding out how any trick was done (either really, or merely thinking that the explanation was true). This is not a good feeling to leave your audience in. He's found a niche where he can dress up what he's doing with something that the modern audience actually will buy into. It's very crafty, and seems to work well for him. Interesting stuff. Annoying to people like Simon Singh, and I don't blame him for being angry. Check out http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html
Cheers Chris |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I read the guy's article.
He says that the Easter bunny is okay but Derren Brown's performing character using scientific seeming methods is somehow over the line. Quoted from the site linked above: "I don't like to think of myself as a spoil-sport. I wouldn't dare question the veracity of Father Christmas, the Tooth Fairy or even the Easter Bunny. But I draw the line at Derren Brown." Friggen amazing hypocrisy in my humble opinion. The veracity of the first two is well known as a cultural lie, as deeply routed (perhaps more) than the basic idea of using fictitious characters in myths, legends, fables and storytelling in general. The story is a vehicle for communicating social norms, be they behavioral or aesthetic. Anyone who wants to learn science can read the books and journals to see what is. Anyone who wants entertainment can watch TV or attend live shows. To be unable to distinguish contexts and presumptions between education and entertainment is ...
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
If he entertains his audience who cares?
The problem arises when people cop to the methods. Then it is too obvious.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
Brown begins every program by saying: "I accomplish the things I do with a varying mixture of Magic, Psychology, Suggestion and Showmanship". He also says, "I'm not above lying to you as well, if I think that it will strengthen the effects".
I don't see anything dishonest in that. It's true. He lays it on the line right up front, establishes an honest relationship with the audience, and then just does his stuff, and does it well. What the audience chooses to believe after that is up to them. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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Platt Inner circle New York 2012 Posts |
If he says "I'm not above lying to you" there's not a problem. I didn't know he begins every show like that. I've seen a lot of clips and heard a lot sound bites from DB and I've never heard him utter those words.
Sugar Rush is here! Freakishly visual magic. http://www.plattmagic.com
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bitterman Inner circle 1189 Posts |
I think it's unethical to form a public opinion without doing the basic research, like, oh say.... watching the show you're talking about?
If you are not cheating, you are only cheating yourself.
Dutchco is about to put out some new Ebook: DUTCHCO. Get 'em while you can. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
So if he dresses like a chicken and does mentalism tricks we would cry fowl!
The guy made it through the thirteen step program and found a nice "hook" for his tricks. Puleese get over it folks.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Platt Inner circle New York 2012 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-02-08 07:47, bitterman wrote: Bitterman, seems like an appropriate handle for you. First off, I wasn't speaking of any show. I was speaking of clips I've seen of him (that were intended to be released as stand alone pieces) and radio interviews/peformances where I can tell you he did not utter anything about not being above lying. In those cases, I'm surely entitled to my opinon. Also, I work with many Brits who just today told me they watch his show all the time and have never once heard him say anything about lying. Maybe you ought to watch the show.
Sugar Rush is here! Freakishly visual magic. http://www.plattmagic.com
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Platt, when folks go to see a production of Hamlet in the theater they don't get all uppity about the violence, social moors or the fact that most Danes don't bicker in English.
Why are folks getting confused by a performing magician who talks about psychology and mentions NLP in his scripted presentations?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Platt Inner circle New York 2012 Posts |
Jonathan, let me first say that I'm not peronally concerned or emotional about what Derren Brown is doing. I'm just trying to establish, on a larger level, if what he's doing is ethical. I'm not quite sure I understand the Hamlet analogy.
I just feel there should be some basic rules of entertainment. The first being, make it clear when it's entertainment. From what I've seen and heard out of DB, he doesn't sell himself as an entertainer or magician but rather as a social scientist (the voice of reason). Perhaps I've seen only the clips that present him as such. Rather than Hamlet, I feel James Randi could be a more revelant analogy. What if Randi (the voice of reason) were to debunk a mentalist by publically explaining to the world that what's really going on is deep hypnosis, not mind reading. And then Randi goes on to cleverly/secretly use a nail writer to prove to the world that it's simply "deep hypnosis." Ethical?
Sugar Rush is here! Freakishly visual magic. http://www.plattmagic.com
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Platt, folks
Let's get some more information about how Derren Brown is presented to the public. Has anyone got some publicity for the guy and his performances to show or sites to link so we can see what sort of context he sets up for shows? Thanks in advance, Jon
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
The idea that we now have to tell the absolute TRUTH in performance is idiotic on its face.
Nobody leaves the theater after a production of Cats and really thinks Cats were singing and dancing. Well a few, but not many really. Nobody thinks murder is done in Hamlet. Why are WE held to such a high standard? So he lies. So he brags. So he exaggerates. So he gives the truth scope. SO WHAT? He is an entertainer, and he entertains his audience. Get over it guys. Believe it or not, we don't really have powers. Stop reading your own promo material.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Danny... you don't?
hmmmm
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Platt Inner circle New York 2012 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-02-08 10:53, Dannydoyle wrote: Whoa Danny, I'm just trying to get some opinions here. To compare this to Cats is missing the point. Cats never formally presented itself as a show based on the true behavior of felines. It presents itself as entertainment and nothing more. My whole point is that I'm not sure (although I could be wrong) DB is presenting himself as entertainment. I think a more suiting cat analogy would be a show on the The Learning Channel (where DB segments have apparently been shown) that speaks of the mysterious power of cats' minds and how cats deepest thoughts subliminally effect every decision we make. Even if the creator of that show made it as purely entertainment, if it's not presented as such, I'd say there is a problem. The masses are receiving mis-information in the context of truth. If a movie comes out that claims to be a historians true account of a time in history (let's say the Holocaust), but shows that nobody was killed, I'd say there's a problem. However if the creator introduced the movie as a piece of fictional entertainment, all's fair. Now there seems to be some conflicting data on how Derren Brown presents himself. I, as well as the Brits I work with have only seen him present his trickery as honest social experiments. As Jonathon has requested, I'd love to hear more about how Derren and his PR people sell his "act" these days.
Sugar Rush is here! Freakishly visual magic. http://www.plattmagic.com
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
He presents himself as an entertainer.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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bitterman Inner circle 1189 Posts |
Swing and a miss, Platt. When you point one finger, you get three more pointing back at you, as they say in AA (so I'm told).
If you are not cheating, you are only cheating yourself.
Dutchco is about to put out some new Ebook: DUTCHCO. Get 'em while you can. |
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ChristopherM Special user UK 844 Posts |
Well in terms of gauging how the public see him, I've spoken to members of the UK public who have been to see his live show, and others who haven't, to see what they think. One guy immediately said, "I'm not a fan". Another said, "that gun roulette thing; how is that magic?!". One more said, "oh the weird mind reading guy".
How about looking into the book which he has published on general release, intended for the public ("Tricks of the Mind")? In it, his opening line is 'The Bible is not fact'. A bold claim. Much more akin to a social debunker/enlightener/voice of reason as Platt suggests, than a light entertainer, folks. He goes on to discuss his 'skill areas', rushing through 'Magic' in the first chapter, saying how he's 'moved on' from it, teaching a coin vanish and a card location. The remaining 90% of the book is spent looking at techniques of NLP, hypnosis (which he suggests doesn't really exist), atheism and religion, and memory skills. The premise and undertone behind all of this is that these are really his 'skill areas', which he applies in everything he does. The statement at the beginning of the TV show is, prima facie, 'true'. It was only introduced in the more recent series. In the first TV shows he did, he began by saying, "These are not magic tricks; this is Mind Control". The statement given now doesn't consist (and never has) of him saying the word "lie/lying". It claims he uses a varied mixture of magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship, and that there are no actors or stooges - that is all. Of those who I have spoken to, most think that he is intriguing, not your ordinary magician, but still a magician (thank goodness). A lot really do think that his grasp on the power of suggestion and NLP is beyond any one else's (as Simon Singh laments), ie he single-handedly outwits all the scientists, psychologists, trained NLP and hypnosis practitioners. The end of 'The Gathering' showed an NLP practitioner saying "I practice NLP, and I don't know how he made me think of that". Regarding the scientist Simon Singh, he is interesting to talk/listen to. What he was lamenting in the article was primarily how Channel 4 listed DB under the banner of "Science" on their website, which is (was), I agree, a grave mistake. The micro site has now been shifted to "Entertainment", on the back of this very article. The idea of the Father Christmas comparison is him saying that we all know that they aren't real, yet can live with them, without hindering our discernment between what is true and what isn't re science. He says he draws the line at DB, because he purports to use psychology way more than he actually does, which is of course true, and that he is deceiving people as to what psychology can legitimately achieve and what it can't. He says he hides behind this veneer of science and clever mental manipulation, resulting in the audience being led astray with false impressions of what science is actually about and the power of psychology/the mind. This, I feel, is a valid point, and Channel 4 listened intently as well. The site also contains hyperlinks to books where you can 'learn more' about his skills; 13 Steps and the like are not listed (thankfully). However, books on hypnosis, and memory improvement are. The site also includes phoney explanations and video clips of some of the performance pieces. http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv......control/ Hope this helps piece together how the public view 'the other DB'. Cheers, Chris |
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