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Juniper587 Regular user 118 Posts |
Hey guys,
I was just wandering how many actual single pieces of manipulation you guys can get into an act for 20-30 mins. Also which manipulations you choose to do. and of course your openers and closers and reasons why for all of these. Any responses would be really helpful. Thanks, Sam |
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Majestic12 Special user Maryland 643 Posts |
Seems like an awful long time for an act in my opinion.
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Juniper587 Regular user 118 Posts |
Majestic 12,
I'm not talking about 1 single continous act of manipulation. There are going to be breaks in between cards and balls. so I mean opener, cards, then maybe rope, tthen balls, then change to an illusion then do candles and then close. That sort of thing. I suppose it isn't just a manipulation act but I was just wandering what sort of things you guys did e.g whether you mix different manipulations together or whether you give each manipulation an entrance to the effect and its own space. Also I was wandering if you gave each one a space how long each goes on for rather than a 20-30 min show of continous manipulation without breaks it would have different aspects of magic with breaks in between it. If anyone else could help that would be great Sam |
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thoughtsexplorer Elite user Elite... not D-Lite! 424 Posts |
Listen to majestic12...
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Juniper587 Regular user 118 Posts |
If you think a magic show that goes on for 20-30 minutes is too long. Then you need to rethink magic acts .
Let me ask you a question is a full evening show too long. NO. So why would a 20-30 minute act be too long . I'll answer that it WOULDN'T. All I'm asking is what people do in their magic shows for their manipulative sequences (e.g., Lance Burton does candles, cards and cigarettes). Yet he also does illusions. And to be honest I wouldn't say his show goes on for too long and I think its a bit longer than 20-30 minutes. So if anyone has any helpful information please post, but if you just don't what I'm going on about please don't. Sam P.S please post what manipulations you do in your show that's all I want to know |
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Majestic12 Special user Maryland 643 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-02-04 08:16, samr1990 wrote: I don't know to many magicians off the top of my head who do more than one manipulative act in their program. Most magicians I know of use the manipulative act as the opener and lasts 7-12 minutes. |
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magic4u02 Eternal Order Philadelphia, PA 15110 Posts |
Sam:
The problem here was in the confusion of your original post and how other readers are interpreting it. That is all and it is nothing personal agisnt you or anyone else commenting on it. The problem lies in the word "act". In most parts, an "act" signifies a routine of manipulation lasting around 7-10 minutes in length that may be created as a contest act or an act/routine for a larger show. I think what you are referring to is what manipulations do you use in a "show" that ususes manipulations and how much manipulations are in this show of that length and what do you do within that show span. So as I said nothing personal at all but I think your original post just confused some people is all and it is not meant as a personal attack against you. There is a difference between a magic act and a show of a set duration. In your lance Burton anaology, Lance's classical light post manipulation act is an ACT of anywhere from 6-10 minutes and that is all. However, his SHOW lasts much longer then that and runs over an hour or more and includes illusions in the show portion. So in Lance's case, Lance uses acts of manipulation into a show of a certain length. Now manipulations in a longer show can be pretty much anything you want. However the manipulations I normally put into an act. If I am having manipulative acts in the show, I might usually open with a manipulative act sequence to music and then I may also end with a different one. Use those manipulative acts as an opener and closer to a larger show format. Then in the middle I could do an illusion and then in the other parts perhaps do some audience participation routines. This wopuld make for a pleasant show that has flow and transitions. Hope this helps. Kyle
Kyle Peron
http://www.kylekellymagic.com Entertainers Product Site http://kpmagicproducts.com Join Our Facebook Fan Page at http://facebook.com/perondesign |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
In regard to variety and dramatic build throughout the entire show, I absolutely agree that it should be done. The key is that variety without dramatic build is wasted energy. Henning Nelms, in "Magic and Showmanship", diagrams this nicely with a graph that shows this plan in action. Manipulation routines can be plugged into such a show, as well as illusions, "in one" pieces, and a few other possible choices.
In regard to manipulation, and the combination of objects within a segment, I have some thoughts... Flow and transistions are nice, but does that contribute to the bigger picture? Maybe, maybe not. The point I hope to be making here is that the combination of objects should be a secondary pursuit to why they are being combined. Simply creating a segue that gets you from point A to point B, is a weakness likely to fail the show as a whole. I have seen some really good shows that contained manipulation routines within them that were very much stand alone pieces, involving a single theme or type of object, with no melds to other themes/objects. One very good example would be the billiard ball sequence from Kalanag's show. That particular portion of the show was opened with a kind of dance number with several beautiful women bouncing very large beachball-type balls. There was no magic, but it very much set a theme. It was a very well done intro to the billiard balls, but was not so much a segue from a previous part of the show, unless you consider beautiful women to be a running theme. The multiplying billiard balls followed, with only Kalanag, the balls, and a cigar to blow smoke, from which the balls appeared and vanished. I thought it was an outstanding piece. Above all, I think what I liked most was that it has a defined finish. It, in itself, was a complete act, only lasting a couple of minutes. In my opinion, it would have been a huge mistake to transistion this piece into another theme, unless there was a larger theme that held the act together from beginning to end. That is where I think most manipulation acts fail. Let's suppose Kalanag had chosen to change the last ball into a playing card, and then went into a manipulative act with cards, it is undeniable that there was a transition. But it is logically weak. Let's further suppose that he had decided to continue the act with the cigar, doing perhaps multiplying cigars. It would be an easier, and perhaps more logical transistion, but it would destroy the beauty and resolve achieved from the conclusion of the billiard balls. In order for this to have any cohesiveness, it would be absolutely imperative that a larger theme be present, of which each of these smaller themes would be a portion. If they don't somehow contribute to the whole, it is better if they are allowed to be framed independantly. A similar ana1ogy could be made by comparing these independant routines to paintings in a museum. Imagine that we are looking at "The Starry Night" by Van Gogh. It is a stand alone piece, existing within its own frame. It may be part of a larger theme. It may be displayed in a wing of the museum along with other paintings by Van Gogh. However, to put it in the same frame with one of Van Gogh's self portraits would be disastrous. It may be displayed as one of several examples of Impressionistic art, but you would not frame it together with any of Monet's "Haystacks". However, framed alone, it could be part of a bigger theme: "The Works of Van Gogh". That in itself could be part of a still bigger theme: "The Impressionists", which could be part of an even broader theme: "Art of the 19th and 20th Century". Housed within the walls of a particular museum gives every inclusion justification to another theme. The point is, there is a logic to the construction of a manipulative act that is often ignored. If any two or more objects classically and commonly, or even uncommonly associated with magical manipulation, be it cards, candles, balls, or whatever can be melded into a routine that makes that routine impossible without the inclusion of all those objects, then you have logic to that act, in so far as their relationship with one another. If the segment presented using any one of those object creates a theme in and of itself, it is best to let that theme stand alone, framed in such a way that the true essence of that piece is given its proper place in the show. If there are to be more of these elemnts within the show, start looking for a bigger frame that will logically wrap its arms around each of them together. ~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Juniper587 Regular user 118 Posts |
Thank you kyle and Michael,
All of your input is very helpful. And yes I suppose I did not make myself clear and I do now realise that show is a better word than act. Kyle and Michael both of your views have great insight into what I am looking for so thank you again for your help. Thanks again, Sam P.S Please still post what manipulation routines you perform in your show. |
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magic4u02 Eternal Order Philadelphia, PA 15110 Posts |
My pleasure Sam. I hope my ideas and information were of help to you my friend. I will try and post some more ideas and food for thought later today once I think about this a bit more.
Kyle
Kyle Peron
http://www.kylekellymagic.com Entertainers Product Site http://kpmagicproducts.com Join Our Facebook Fan Page at http://facebook.com/perondesign |
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Circus Bambouk Loyal user Tempe, AZ 256 Posts |
I recently asked a question here regarding length of a manipulation act, and I've had some time to think about it, Sam.
While this was on my mind, I was invited to see the 'Gazillion Bubble Show', recently playing here in town. Fan Yang does about 75 minutes of bubbles. He does not do a 75 minute act, rather he opens with a small bowl of bubble liquid, a straw and his hands. That's about 6 minutes. He closes with bubble machines, fog, lasers, etc. In between, he uses audience volunteers, helium-filled bubbles, drama, comedy, smoke-filled balloons, etc. If the magic you choose to do onstage is primarily manipulation, that's great. But it should probably not feel that way to your audience. 25 minute music videos do not play on MTV...R.Kelly's Hip Hoperas notwithstanding. Visually arresting, choreographed manipulation is great. So is a romantic, dramatic piece. Comedy is always welcome. Allowing your personality to shine is encouraged. Suspense, danger, wonderful. It's not the tricks, it's about the connection to the audience, and the way each section will affect them. Give them a ride. My background is in physical theatre and circus. I have also done a fair amount of Shakespeare, and I can speak commandingly on stage. However, I choose to not speak while doing my magic. So I try my hardest to take my audience on 'the ride' without any text...it's a challenge. Keeps me on my toes. I could tell you what tricks I perform, but it doesn't really matter. Do what you enjoy, and what works for your character. I saw Tony Picasso at the Magic Castle about a month ago. Nobody walked away saying, "he did Cutting the Aces, Coin Matrix and a multiple selection/revelation with a kicker ending". We walked away saying, "we just met an 'upscale con artist'". My two cents. Good luck, Brian |
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magic4u02 Eternal Order Philadelphia, PA 15110 Posts |
I found some information I wrote about a long while agao as an article pertaining to this exact line of thinking, I wanted to post it below cause I think it might be some very good food for thought for you. Hope it helps.
I decided to write this article out of numerous requests I have received from many magicians and manipulators on the subject of putting an act together. How do you keep it creative and different and why is it not the best to just do an act of pure skill alone. Below is my answer to these questions along with some tips on what has worked for me in regards to ways anyone can make their own acts more creative and therefore connect better with the audience and gather more response and applause along with it. My first question to anyone putting an act together may seem a bit strange or sound like I am being too harsh, but read on and I think you will see what I am referring to. Some of these tips relate to manipulative magic, but the tips can be used for any type of an act. My big question to you is: WHY!!!!! I told you that it may seem a bit strange, but let me go on now to tell you about what I am referring to. To a magician, we are fascinated with cards and flourishes and vanishes and anything related to manipulation. It amazes us by the technique and the method and skill involved in doing the executions of the routines. This alone keeps us striving to learn more and peaks our interest and curiosity. However, this is often NOT the case with a lay audience. A lay audience does not see manipulative magic in the same way we do. They do not understand the techniques and skills involved and nor should they if what we are doing is supposed to be magical. With this in mind, the audience often will say to themselves... "WHY". Why is this magician doing the same thing over and over again. Why? Because the magician knows he is doing different vanishes and each one is slightly unique. However the audience only knows that the card vanishes, the card returned and now your doing it again. This is why an act of manipulation is very hard to do well if your doing it for 7-8 mins in a normal act time. You do not want your audience ever going "Why" at any time in the routine. So how do you work around this problem of boring your audience to tears? Well that is where research and creativity comes into the picture. It gets back to the point that in a manipulative act you must give the audience "more". It is not good enough to simply show an 8 minute act of pure skill alone doing moves that appear the same to any audience. So how do you give your audience more? Well you can give them more through the use of themes, character, style, pacing, transition effects and emotional response to just name a few. Let me go on to talk very briefly about each of these I just mentioned. Each could be an article all in itself but I will just give you my tips on each one for now in hopes you can grasps what I am referring to. - Themes: You can give more to your audience in any manipulative act if you simply add in a theme to the act you are doing. This can be a generalized theme in regards to the objects all relating that you are manipulating, or the act itself can be themed around a storyline. In this way you are performing a small 8 min play that just so happens to have magic in it. The audience can relate to the themed objects or the story and get more involved with your act and with you. - Character: Every act you do should have a strong character present on stage. The audience needs to be able to connect with this character. If you can connect the audience with you, then they become more attached to you and can relate to what you are doing on stage. Ask yourself if your character is suave, comical, athletic, hip, sad, down on his luck. Each of these can become a strong character that can be conveyed in your stage movement and even your music. - Style: With style, I mean the way you move on stage and the way you conduct and hold yourself throughout the act. It is something that must be learned over time. It is those little things that make a huge difference to an audience liking you or not. It can be the way you pause at the right moment and look at the audience and wink right before a big production. It could be the way you move and look and smile at the audience as if saying thank you without moving your mouth at all. - Pacing: The way you pace and time your act can make a world of difference to an audience. In many manipulative acts, the audience is being barraged with too much visual input. They can not follow it all the time and so start shutting themselves down from even watching what it is you are doing. You must pace your act and place in it pauses that give the audience a chance to catch up, breathe a bit and give them a chance to applaude you before going into the next sequence. - Transition effects: These are the simple things you can place into your act that changes it up a bit and ads so called "spice" to the act. It gives your audience something more to watch and breaks up the act from being too repetitive. For example: You could be doing a billiard ball act. You do a few vanishes and produce the ball. The ball gets tossed up and as you catch it it turns into a white silk. You do a knots of silk effect and the not becomes the ball again. In this way the ball to silk becomes a transition effect that gives your audience something more to be interested in. - Emotional Response: This is a HUGE one and can work so wonderful if done well. If done right it can make your audience connect with you long after you have left the stage. It is causing an emotional response in your audiences by allowing them to connect and relate to your character and the predicament presented on the stage. It can also work closely in with the theme you are presenting. Every person in your audience has experienced something in common. What is common to us all is emotions. We have all felt fear, love, confusion and happiness. These are common to every person know matter who you are performing for. So if you can connect with them on one or more of these emotions, you can get that audience member to really relate to you because they are remembering a similar situation when they too had that exact same emotion or situation happen to them. they can relate. For example, your manipulative act could be all about this guy at night who is just trying to reach a bus to get home. It is late and he misses his bus and the entire world seems to be passing him buy. He sits on a bench to wait for the next bus and turns on his radio. He drifts off to sleep only to awake moments later. He realizes that magic starts happening to him even though he does not know exactly why it is. Through out the act the magic that happens to him causes him to smile and to realize that life is full of wonder even if we may not always see it. Now this is just a very vague example but you can see how the entire act could be a manipulative routine but now you are relating to them a story of a very well defined character with a well defined theme. You give them an emotional response to the act because most can relate to being in a similar situation in their own life. In this way they relate better to what you are doing on stage. Now these ideas are not meant to be the bible for a great act by any means. They are simply some of my own understandings on what I have experienced that has really worked not only for myself but to other acts that have really "made it." They are meant only to be reviewed and given some thought to. Take even one thing from them and I think you will see your act reaching your audiences in a whole different light. So I simply ask you to ask yourself. WHY? Hope this helps you out some. Kyle
Kyle Peron
http://www.kylekellymagic.com Entertainers Product Site http://kpmagicproducts.com Join Our Facebook Fan Page at http://facebook.com/perondesign |
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Juniper587 Regular user 118 Posts |
Thanks for your help Brian I'm understanding what you say and a switch just clicked in my head about how helpful that was.
Also thanks again kyle for all of your help here at the Café, iy is great and the inspiration you give us young guys is tremendous. I am really looking forward to your next post. Thanks again, Sam |
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magic4u02 Eternal Order Philadelphia, PA 15110 Posts |
Thank you Sam. My pleasure. If I can be of further help or answer additional questions for you, please let me know. My pleasure. I have always been a believer that you need to give back to magic what magic has given to you. to make it an artform it only makes sense to talk to those starting out in magic and share my knowledge and ideas with them. This is why I am so active with youth in magic and have been with the Society of Young Magicians for years now. It is a way to have magicians helping magicians and the future of magic.
Kyle
Kyle Peron
http://www.kylekellymagic.com Entertainers Product Site http://kpmagicproducts.com Join Our Facebook Fan Page at http://facebook.com/perondesign |
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jimmy talksalot Special user new orleans 757 Posts |
Hi I got a show that runs 20 min some times as long as 30min of manipulation.
I may not be using proper terminology but if you can bare with me; each bit I do has a beginning mid and end usually 4 bits for the show for a longer show more bits. example: 1st bit; * start with a small 1 coin manip[beginning] * turns into a large coin w/manips [mid] * finales by turning into large fruit and a honking horn [end] 2nd bit; * maybe a ball manip [beginning] * big ball manip [mid] * produce a bunch of balls [end] and so on...... I use comedy as filler but I think any bit of theater would suffice for filler to keep the show moving. the method I use to put a show together is from cellini's street perf. vid #1 using sonny hollidays show to explain. it breaks down the whole show and answers the questions I've had and been reading here....people are saying this is why cellini is so important for our era in magic. w/ this system I've been able to do a show from 5min to 30min what ever the venue is calling for. I know theres been many a program director relieved by this when I was booked in the different cabarets I've worked, cuz they've told me so. I dunno if I was any help or if my writings bad......remember i'am a street performer were not know for bein eloquent........ |
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jimmy talksalot Special user new orleans 757 Posts |
Oh yeh, I just read back over magic4u02's post discussing character I think he's hit the nail on the head...he really gets it.
I truly believe you can stink at magic and have a great show....of couirse we don't wanna stink at magic, but you get what I mean....why do people wanna watch us and not the move monkeys at the magic meeting?[...and you know who you are!] because we're doin a "show" not a repeditive demonstration of technique and skill. they gotta fall in love with you before they'll feel comfortable with complamenting you. and doin a knuckle busting 30 second move to change the color of one card ain't good enough....maybe telling em it takes a 30 second knuckle busting move to turn that card, might....unless of course your boring when you tell em. |
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Darkwing Inner circle Nashville Tn 1850 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-02-04 12:24, Michael Baker wrote: Micheal, Very good observation. Could you explain and expound on your thoughts on a transition from lets say from billiard balls to card manipulations being logically weak? Is it because of the "why"? Thank You, David Williams |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-02-04 21:06, Darkwing wrote: David, I believe I did address this in the paragraph that followed that which you quoted: "... it would destroy the beauty and resolve achieved from the conclusion of the billiard balls." I will attempt to rephrase this, but first answer your direct question... I do not think the question "Why?" is the most important issue here. To ask a question such as why would you change say, a billiard ball into a card, is in my opinion, an issue that magicians as of late seem to enjoy over-ana1yzing. Magic, by its very nature, can be illogical. Of course, it sounds intellectual and logical to say that we would be better magicians if every effect that we perform served a purpose firmly rooted in the real world. But magic is an art, and art is quite frequently illogical in content. So, if art does not always "make sense", it must exist because of a different type or level of connection to us. Why would it be said that a puppy is so ugly, that it's cute? Something about that puppy, or that oddly strange piece of art, or that seemingly disconnected magic trick may strike us on a different level. All are outside the boundaries of "normal", but yet we find them fascinating, and drawn to them. So, let's assume that both logical and illogical effects do have a place in magic. Scenario #1: A ball turns into a playing card because for some explained reason, the magician needs a playing card. Let's make up that reason and say that the magician is playing idly with a ball, and a child walks up to him and asks to see a card trick. The transformation is a logical effect, and perhaps a logical transition from balls to cards in the act, because a larger theme justifies it. We can make up that theme, and call it, "A Day in the Life of the Magician". Imagine that after the child leaves, the magician, now holding a card, or a deck of cards, walks past a newspaper box. Finding himself without the proper change, he causes the card(s) to become coins, which he then uses to purchase a newspaper, to later use in some other magical way. The larger theme then justifies each of these transitions. They become logical because the effects are logical. Scenario #2: A ball vanishes, and winds up in the magician's pocket. You would be hard-pressed to find an answer to the question, "Why?", but the effect is very good, and quite possibly entertaining, if only for the small mystery it created. More of these strangely wonderful effects follow with the ball. The self-contained theme could be called, "The Impish Ball". Illogical to the laws of science and natural reality, the premise is logical, if only by virtue of fantasy. The ball then turns into a playing card with no apparent reason for such a transformation, and another series of effects take place with cards. This, in my opinion, is an illogical transition in regards to dramatic theater. More bluntly put, I think it is bad theater. It simply devalues the segment with the balls, by dismissing it so casually, as to just "move on". If there is any reason to ask "Why?", this would be the time. Why did the magician go to all that effort, if the entire purpose was to bring us to this next segment, which will probably prove to be just as easy to dismiss? The segment with the balls was in itself, a complete act. It should be allowed the luxury of having a period placed at the end. The frame that surrounds it has no breaks. It should be viewed without other elements battling for attention. Continuing to change direction without a larger purpose to fulfill, but with transitions that do get you from point A to point B, compare to a run-on sentence. The transitions become misused conjunctions. Have you ever been forced to listen to someone talk who connects many disjointed thoughts by sticking, "... and, um..." in between the jumps from one topic to the next? It completely undoes the emphasis on any single thought. So, to hopefully conclude my thoughts here, let me say that I believe transitions in a manipulative act, having a reason for existing, are more important than the concocting of lame segues, that only serve to fool the magician into thinking that the act is now a fluid and seamless thing. If they do not serve that purpose, they are better left out. I believe that independant units can coexist within the framework of a larger show. I also believe that such units may be better presented to an audience in the context of a show, if their independant nature is accentuated through the use of variety within the show. I believe the audience will find it easier to remember what the magician did, because each unit was essentially a mini play in itself, independantly spotlighted, and not blended until all colors turn a muddy gray. ~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Paul Jester Special user UK 759 Posts |
I'm currently working on expanding my 10min act into a show that I can run to any required length. As a 1 man show it's really hard! But openers:
I always open with my 10 minute act, it's made to be pretty, flashy, get attention, and round off to a logical conclusion. It gives people my character, and gets them on my side as it were. I inlcude flowers, thimbles and balls, and it takes my audience through a few different feelings. Next I want to get my audience more involved, actually involved. So I bring out the linking rings, I use 8 because I want to switch the key in. I leave the key out at the start because I want to hand out all 8 rings. After the key is in play, I do some links with the audience, before going on to 4 fast patterns on stage and into the long chain. This can be akward if the audience is hard to get to from the stage, but there are ways around it. Then I'm ending with the full snowstorm routine, a spectacular and classic finish. Total time is about 20mins Other effects I'm playing with for inclusion are a dancing hanky (Ballerina Hank aka Waltzing Matilda), because it allows me to show more character and the audience can enjoy some puppetry. A levitation makes a nice change from the typical production in manips, I use the hanky rather than zombie because I prefer the character of it. Also Misers dream lets you do your pretty manipulation and bring the whole audience into it before taking up a volunteer, a rare quality in a manip routine! Other classic closers are the Salt Pour, and Butterflies. Also there is the small finish, where you do 1 small perfect effect, such as showing both hands empty and producing a single card/coin... A rough outline for a 20-30min show would be open and get their attention, then include your routines that are not so flashy, but entertaining. Get the audience involved, physically and emotionally if possible. And close. Close with something that will give them something to talk about... the grand finalle. Also try not to make a 30minute show of all productions. And whatever you do, do it the best you can, you need to give as much attention to every piece as you give to your 10min act. Good Luck, Paul |
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Paul Jester Special user UK 759 Posts |
Incidently the manipulation sequences were traditionally used in front of the curtain by the magician whilst the people cleared the stage and set-up the next peice. Therefore the Billiards, or whatever other peice you're doing, would have been a complete peice.
Paul |
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