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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Haim Goldenburg Evidence that Biss had awareness of the 7thsense » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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shrink
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We now have in our hands a copy of the Tesla manual. It credits Haim Goldenberg for being a colaborator on the project.

Haim contacted me early last year asking to buy a 7th Sense. He said he wanted one because of the fact Nimrod Harel was raving about the product.

I didn't sell him one at the time because we just released 8th Sense and pulled 7th Sense at that time.

But to say Biss wasn't aware of the 7th Sense when one of his colaboraters tried to buy one is really strectching it.

Perhaps Haim could add to this since he is a member of the Café?

And maybe we can shed some more light on the possibility of theft?
Daegs
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Quote:
theft?


Do you have any *EVIDENCE* to back you up shrink?
shrink
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Well the evidence through all these threads points to theft.
Biss's is welcome to comment.

Haim knew about 7th Sense in detail. In fact wanted to purchase one. I find it almost impossible to believe he wouldn't have mentioned 7th Sense to Biss as they colaborated on his project.

Biss claims he didn't know anything about 7th Sense.

You make up your own mind.

Haim is welcome to put in his comments.
Daegs
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I asked for evidence not conjecture.

Knowing that a product exist does not mean he knew the inner workings or model of 7th sense.

Are you saying Haim knew what the unit looked like and the exact system used to cue?

I've wanted to buy things before without knowing how they worked....

Secondly do you have any evidence that Haim told Biss about the 7th sense?


It seems that your only link is that he is credited as a Collaborator, when for all *I* know, Haim could have just drawn the cover art or something without knowing much about the product.

Even if he closely worked on it, then he is at fault and not Biss assuming he did not hear about the working of 7th sense from Haim.


You still have no evidence Biss knew they were nearly identical products, you are making very large assumptions about what "might" have happened with no evidence provided.

I know neither you nor Biss, but from what I've read I've yet to see one FACT or piece of evidence that shows Biss knew he was infringing on anyones product, and furthermore he has already stopped selling any new units... if he has no problem ripping people off as you say, then why has he stopped selling new units?
DJM
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Quote:
On 2007-02-19 13:41, Daegs wrote:
if he has no problem ripping people off as you say, then why has he stopped selling new units?


Maybe because he was caught? Just a guess..
Don McCleod
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Quote:
On 2007-02-19 13:41, Daegs wrote:
if he has no problem ripping people off as you say, then why has he stopped selling new units?


Because Hocus Pocus and Elmwood have both dropped it.
shrink
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Im not accusing Haim of anything. What I am saying that he knew about 7th Sense through his friend Nimrod. The evidence is not direct but circumstantial. And stretches the credibility Biss's story even further that he did not know about 7th Sense.

I find it insulting that one of his collaborators knew about 7th Sense had corrospoded with me but never mentioned it to Biss. A search in the Café will easy pull up numerous threads on the Café relating to 7th Sense. A simple e-mail woud've got him all the research info he needed to make an informed decision had he actually "discovered" these units himself. &th Sense was never as obscure as he is trying claim. Neither was the Buma board. Mentalism is a small world.
The Doctor
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Quote:
On 2007-02-19 13:41, Daegs wrote:
You still have no evidence Biss knew they were nearly identical products, you are making very large assumptions about what "might" have happened with no evidence provided.



Biss and Paul Richards discussed the similarities with 8th Sense: Fact.

8th Sense instructions contains a reference to 7th Sense as does the 8th Sense web page: Fact.
Daegs
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Biss and Paul Richards discussed the similarities with 8th Sense: Fact.
8th Sense instructions contains a reference to 7th Sense as does the 8th Sense web page: Fact.



Ok, but those two facts together does not mean that Biss knew about the 7th sense. Fact 1 just means he knew about 8th sense(which was way more expensive with many more features and enough differences to make the products not the same).

Fact 2 is only relevant if Biss read the 8th sense instructions, which AFAIK no one has said that he did.

In regards to the website, I only saw:
Quote:
In 2004 Shrink�s original 7th Sense redefined silent coding system


Even if he DID read that one line on the website its hard to know that they were exactly the same.

I'm not trying to defend or attack anyone, I'm just saying as an impartial reader of the threads, none of the things I've read have shown any *evidence* that he was knowingly ripping anyone off.

The *ONLY* bit of evidence is shrink's reports of what the manufacturer said, but given that there may be more than one worker and I don't know the manufacturer, anything they say must be suspect imho. If they were trying to make some money on the side by selling units to a magician and got caught in it, they would have as much reason to lie as biss would if he knowingly ripped it off.


Finally, I think we need to re-examine the situation since this is dealing with a non-magic product used for magic.

From what I understand, all biss saw was "Hey here is a neat device that could be used for magic".


Even if he heard about the 7th sense/8th sense, I wouldn't think that he would immediately think they were ALSO sex toys re-modded for magic use.

Personally, this is a situation that makes complete sense:

Biss finds sex toy, orders sex toy, inquires to the manufacturer. The manufacturer, wanting to sell a 50-100 units(or whatever) in bulk, ignores what he said about being a magician and sells him the units, but refuses to make modifications because while they can ignore knowing he was using them for magic, they couldn't ignore making modifications that they shouldn't be making(per arrangement with Shrink).

Biss hears about other thumper devices on the market, notes higher price tag or currently un-availability and thinks to himself "Hey, those are custom units and I'm buying mine straight from the people who own patent, so because my device is un-modified that other product would be infringing upon the patent if they were the same, so they must not be the same!"

He thinks this, gets the product on the market and then finds out about shrink's product in more detail, stops selling them and apologizes.

Shrink ask manufacturer about it, they say "no way he didn't tell us he was a magician" to shrink while keeping all of Biss's money from the units AND money from manufacturing Shrink's units.


TO ME, that situation makes complete sense. If biss knew that they had a patent on the design and they said nothing to him about making units for another magician(in order to get Biss to buy units in bulk), then he should have no reason to think he would be copying anyone elses design, because he was buying from the patent holder.

it makes more sense than Biss *knowingly* throwing money into buying units in bulk to rip someone off only to stop right away makes no sense. And don't give me this "well he was caught". If he DID know they were the same, then he knew he would get caught from the get-go.

Nothing said has made what I believe to have happened wrong, which is why I would like some evidence before we continue this lynch mob going after Biss.
John LeBlanc
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I have spoken to someone who has both devices in his possession. In his opinion -- an opinion I've come to trust -- the devices, while starting from the same "raw material" and accomplishing the same end result (that of a thumper), are different enough from one another (thanks to custom modifications by Shrink, as well as accompanying instructions and routining) to be considered different products.

Consider, for a moment, that the following may be accurate:

1. James Biss knew of 7th Sense and what it did but not the physical item used to accomplish it. The only other item to which he could compare was 8th Sense;

2. the means by which Biss came into knowing about the item used as the basis of both Tesla Vision and 7th Sense was as he described;

3. the manufacturer did not communicate to Biss the fact that 7th Sense used the same item;

4. and that Haim knew as much about 7th Sense as James Biss may have (that it was a thumper.)

Just asking "what if?" How would that affect anyone's opinion of he way this has gone so far?

By the way, Paul Gross and Hocus Pocus magic was grossly and unfairly attacked and, so far, has received two public apologies over it. That, I think, is a good start.

John
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The Doctor
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Quote:
On 2007-02-19 17:52, Daegs wrote:
Quote:
Biss and Paul Richards discussed the similarities with 8th Sense: Fact.
8th Sense instructions contains a reference to 7th Sense as does the 8th Sense web page: Fact.



Ok, but those two facts together does not mean that Biss knew about the 7th sense. Fact 1 just means he knew about 8th sense(which was way more expensive with many more features and enough differences to make the products not the same).

Fact 2 is only relevant if Biss read the 8th sense instructions, which AFAIK no one has said that he did.



Agreed, it is not definitive proof but surely these facts alone should have triggered futher investigation as to what EXACTLY 7th Sense was?

Quote:
On 2007-02-19 17:52, Daegs wrote:

In regards to the website, I only saw:
Quote:
In 2004 Shrink's original 7th Sense redefined silent coding system


Even if he DID read that one line on the website its hard to know that they were exactly the same.


On the website FAQs it states:

"What exactly is 8th Sense and how does it differ from the original 7th Sense?

The 7th Sense has evolved into the 8th Sense. It’s based on the same silent alert technology platform but offers functionality above and beyond the original. In addition to the original incredible capability the 8th Sense boasts a silent, wireless electronic remote alert system that allows you to instantly know which of up to five objects are removed from a surface, or the order in which five objects are removed from a surface, without going anywhere near the spectator, without seeing the spectator or even being in the same room as a spectator and without the need for an accomplice.

However the 8th Sense still has contained with in it the same versatility of the 7th Sense by retaining the two person silent coding system which means it can be used by both the solo performer and with secret assistance. This opens the device up to an increadible range of effects and new possibilities never seen before in one device"


Maybe I'm one for prudence, but if I were Biss I'd investigate a bit further.




Quote:
On 2007-02-19 17:52, Daegs wrote:

I'm not trying to defend or attack anyone, I'm just saying as an impartial reader of the threads, none of the things I've read have shown any *evidence* that he was knowingly ripping anyone off.



Knowingly or not, isn't ultimately the effect the same?


Quote:
On 2007-02-19 17:52, Daegs wrote:
Quote:
Biss and Paul Richards discussed the similarities with 8th Sense: Fact.
8th Sense instructions contains a reference to 7th Sense as does the 8th Sense web page: Fact.



Ok, but those two facts together does not mean that Biss knew about the 7th sense. Fact 1 just means he knew about 8th sense(which was way more expensive with many more features and enough differences to make the products not the same).

Fact 2 is only relevant if Biss read the 8th sense instructions, which AFAIK no one has said that he did.

In regards to the website, I only saw:
Quote:
In 2004 Shrink�s original 7th Sense redefined silent coding system


The *ONLY* bit of evidence is shrink's reports of what the manufacturer said, but given that there may be more than one worker and I don't know the manufacturer, anything they say must be suspect imho. If they were trying to make some money on the side by selling units to a magician and got caught in it, they would have as much reason to lie as biss would if he knowingly ripped it off.


Finally, I think we need to re-examine the situation since this is dealing with a non-magic product used for magic.

From what I understand, all biss saw was "Hey here is a neat device that could be used for magic".


Even if he heard about the 7th sense/8th sense, I wouldn't think that he would immediately think they were ALSO sex toys re-modded for magic use.

Personally, this is a situation that makes complete sense:

Biss finds sex toy, orders sex toy, inquires to the manufacturer. The manufacturer, wanting to sell a 50-100 units(or whatever) in bulk, ignores what he said about being a magician and sells him the units, but refuses to make modifications because while they can ignore knowing he was using them for magic, they couldn't ignore making modifications that they shouldn't be making(per arrangement with Shrink).

Biss hears about other thumper devices on the market, notes higher price tag or currently un-availability and thinks to himself "Hey, those are custom units and I'm buying mine straight from the people who own patent, so because my device is un-modified that other product would be infringing upon the patent if they were the same, so they must not be the same!"

He thinks this, gets the product on the market and then finds out about shrink's product in more detail, stops selling them and apologizes.

Shrink ask manufacturer about it, they say "no way he didn't tell us he was a magician" to shrink while keeping all of Biss's money from the units AND money from manufacturing Shrink's units.


TO ME, that situation makes complete sense. If biss knew that they had a patent on the design and they said nothing to him about making units for another magician(in order to get Biss to buy units in bulk), then he should have no reason to think he would be copying anyone elses design, because he was buying from the patent holder.

it makes more sense than Biss *knowingly* throwing money into buying units in bulk to rip someone off only to stop right away makes no sense. And don't give me this "well he was caught". If he DID know they were the same, then he knew he would get caught from the get-go.

Nothing said has made what I believe to have happened wrong, which is why I would like some evidence before we continue this lynch mob going after Biss.


Again, isn't that counter conjecture? The truth is between Biss, Shrink and the manufacturer. Personally I think Shrink has a stronger case but then again, I'm not a jurer but a mere commentator.
Daegs
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Quote:
Maybe I'm one for prudence, but if I were Biss I'd investigate a bit further.


Doctor, if he was told that the manufacturer of the device owns the patent on the design, then don't you think its reasonable for him to assume that 7th sense would differ in design?????
shrink
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Is that what happened with the Buma board too? I think its safe to assume that anything is reasonable to expect from Biss.
The Doctor
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John, you make some salient points but may I offer these in counterbalance as they may be just as accurate:

Quote:
On 2007-02-19 18:07, John LeBlanc wrote:


1. James Biss knew of 7th Sense and what it did but not the physical item used to accomplish it. The only other item to which he could compare was 8th Sense;



Which apparently he and a friend did. Would the similarity in hardware have prompted further investigation, even if it was an enquiry to the manufacturer or Shrink himself?

Quote:
On 2007-02-19 18:07, John LeBlanc wrote:


2. the means by which Biss came into knowing about the item used as the basis of both Tesla Vision and 7th Sense was as he described;




It may not have been but it does cause some rather interesting imagery.

Quote:
On 2007-02-19 18:07, John LeBlanc wrote:


3. the manufacturer did not communicate to Biss the fact that 7th Sense used the same item;



Maybe Biss didn't ask.

Quote:
On 2007-02-19 18:07, John LeBlanc wrote:

4. and that Haim knew as much about 7th Sense as James Biss may have (that it was a thumper.)



Shrink can confim this but he told me that Haim tried to order a unit after seeing Nimrod Harel's 7th Sense unit. True or not? Ask Haim but Shrink seems to believe it. If this is true, and depending on the level of collaboration, Haim should have told Biss of the similarities.

Quote:
On 2007-02-19 18:07, John LeBlanc wrote:

By the way, Paul Gross and Hocus Pocus magic was grossly and unfairly attacked and, so far, has received two public apologies over it. That, I think, is a good start.

John


I agree, Paul deserves an apology and I too apologise if I caused any offence.
The Doctor
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Quote:
On 2007-02-19 18:39, Daegs wrote:
Quote:
Maybe I'm one for prudence, but if I were Biss I'd investigate a bit further.


Doctor, if he was told that the manufacturer of the device owns the patent on the design, then don't you think its reasonable for him to assume that 7th sense would differ in design?????


Not really, since if the same manufacturer makes 7th Sense, he is allowed to alter the design within the parameters of the patent thereby falling within the same patent.
Daegs
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Not really, since if the same manufacturer makes 7th Sense, he is allowed to alter the design within the parameters of the patent thereby falling within the same patent.


Um this is exactly my point. The manufacturer (apparently) did not tell Biss about the 7th sense or that they had worked for any magicians at all.

If they told him they were making modified units under the patent for a magician, then that's one thing, but then I don't think he would have bought the units.... If they did not mention it then there would be no reason so assume any other magic item would have the same design, as it is patented.


Also, of course my post is conjecture, I never said it wasnt. I am NOT trying to say Bliss is innocent, I am merely stating that I find the situation of Biss being innocent is more logical and sensible than the others.


Lets talk motive. The manufacturer has motive to not tell Biss about Shrink in order to make money from him buying units in bulk. The manufacturer has motive to tell Shrink they didn't know Biss was a magician in order to keep Shrink's business.

If we assume Shrink is correct here and Biss knowingly set out to rip him off, then what is Biss's motive?

If he knew about the 7th sense from the beginning then he knew he would get caught, and must have planned to not continue to sell the units from the beginning. He would also have to assume he would be getting flamed on message boards and that the reputable dealers would stop carrying the product.

So, knowing this(which he must if we are to believe Shrink that he knowingly ripped off 7th sense), what is the motive for Biss? he is now stuck with X number of units with no dealer to sell them, he has a bad reputation from this and isn't selling them anymore

If what you say is true and he planned all this from the beginning, then why come on the Café and try to defend himself by making up a story that spanned 2 pages? He has already made the "quick buck" you allege he was trying to make, so why take the time to make up a story, write it out and then post it in his defense?


I'm saying(and this is all conjecture) that the situation of the manufacturer trying to make a bit of money(notice they wont accept returns from Biss) makes A LOT more sense to me than Biss planning all this out to get himself stuck with units he cant return and a bad rep.....
The Doctor
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That is an awful lot of if's Daegs...

There are any number of reasons why things have turned out the way they have. Your conjecture has merit and is logical but there is a simpler and much more straightforward explanation too which I shan't post as it will get me in a lot of trouble...

One point I was trying to make is that Biss should have done his homework and given past experiences he should have realised that his work is under heavier scrutiny than others less controversial so should have researched harder. At best Biss has been sloppy.
Jeff J.
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"Lets talk motive. The manufacturer has motive to not tell Biss about Shrink in order to make money from him buying units in bulk. The manufacturer has motive to tell Shrink they didn't know Biss was a magician in order to keep Shrink's business."
JamesBiss
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My dear Magic Caférs,

While I'm trying to wade above the mud throwing of Mr. Shrink and not respond to all of his accuasations and indeed all his threads, some thoughts shared above are worth acknowledging and further reflection...


John LeBlanc and Daegs ... your insights and deductions are almost dead on. Thank you for your sensibility in this whole sordid mess that Mr. Shrink seems obsessed with stirring and stirring for his own purposes. Thank you for noticing a few key flaws in the attacks against me...

I believe I made almost the same points on the other thread to explain EXACTLY what has happened. Shall I take an oath. I would be most happy to do so.

* I unilaterally offered to discontinue any new shipments of TeslaVision and leave the market for his own similar product (as we all now know) in private correspondance to Shrink. He has conveniently failed to share this with anyone.

* I repeatedly indicated to the patent holder that I intended to market to the magic/mentalism community and expected exclusivity. Shrink claims this never happened. I assure you it did and I would also be happy to share the contents of our e-mails to you on request, privately. They're personal and contain confidential pricing and payment details but they are very, very clear. The patent holder encouraged me to pursue this venture and made no mention whatsoever of his relationship with somebody already in the marketplace - Shrink or otherwise. I was misled it would seem. It would seem that Mr. Shrink may have been too - or he's now telling more tales.

* Haim is "the famous Israeli mentalist" I referred to in my other long and detailed posting. He "dropped the penny" for the direction of TeslaVision and was the inspiration for one of the routines which he also shared on his wonderful DVDs. We have never discussed 7th Sense together. If he's ever seen one he's never told me about it. I suspect not because even since he's received his TeslaVision a few weeks ago - he's never mentioned it to me. He's a great guy and wonderfully creative mind. Stop trying to throw mud at him too.


I think this last point is most frustrating to our friend and why his knickers are in such a knot despite what I have already done to remedy this unfortunate misunderstanding.

Again, I would be happy to provide a few unbiased individuals with some interesting reading by private mail. I don't think posting them here would be appropriate to all concerned. A jury of sorts? Mssr. LeBlanc? Mssr. Daegs? Interested? Or does anyone really care about the truth of all this BS being thrown all over the Magic Café by the only person who can benefit by it...

Warm regards,

James
James Biss
Tony Iacoviello
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James:

Personally, I'd like to see us all move on and away from this subject. There are more productive ways for us all to spend our time and energy.

You have withdrawn the Teslavison product, which I feel was the right thing to do. As I stated a week ago, if the product, even intentionally was the same in method, operation, and effect as an already marketed item, the ethical thing to do would be withdraw it, and you did.

You have provided your explanation, Shrink has supplied his. As far as the community should be concerned, the matter is over with the exception of personal issues between you and Shrink. And personal issues are just that, personal.

At least, this is how I see it.

Tony Iacoviello
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