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Margarette
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A post from another thread asked why this section was needed at all, and are we not all magicians. I did feel that comment did need a reply, but not in that thread. To answer the question of "are we not all magicians?", the answer, of course, is yes. HOWEVER, let's take a look at a couple of things:

1) When you see a woman at a magic function, how often do you assume that she is NOT a magician? Do you assume that she is someone's assistant/mother/significant other? From personal experience, not many ask what type of magic I do. They are quick to ask who I am accompanying at the function.

2) When you DO run into a female magician, is your first comment about what type of magic she performs or is it about how unusual it is to see a female magician.

As for why this forum is necessary, well, all I can say is that there are unique problems that are experienced by women in dealing with magic. How do we use a topit if we don't wear a jacket when we perform? How do we sleeve something if we wear sleeveless outfits? How do we overcome the problem of smaller hands when using cards and TTs? Just to name a few...

So, just as there are professional organizations for women in industry, like WIC (Women in Construction) and SWE (Society of Women Engineers), women need a "place" where we can discuss problems unique to our situations.

Just my two cents,

Margarette
The only stupid question is the one not asked.
gsidhe
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I try very hard not to post in here, as frankly, I am not a woman. I do however work with a partner who is, so I see a lot of the issues first hand. I am sick and tired of people assuming she is my assistant.
We have a long engagement show booked in June. We have worked with these people before, they are familiar with our show.
On their website, in their promotional stuff the billed us as "A family-friendly comedy and variety show featuring the master daredevil Gwydion and his glass-eating assistant Sylver".
It was a real slap in the face to Sylver.
She is half of the show and a major factor in why we draw in the crowds we do. She spends hours a week developing her skills, perfecting old ones, coming up with new ones. If all I needed was an assistant, I could use anyone and have them trained in a week. I literally could not do this show without someone of her skills.
They assume she is an assistant simply because she is female.
I wrote the coordinator last night, and hopefully He will make the changes immediately.
On another note, I was going through the forums and came accross a thread on Sexy Mentalism. Things were going fine, and Cyssa posted something relevenat to the discussion here;
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......;start=0


It is needed so that there is a safe place for a magician to discuss hiding doves in their bra without some knuckle dragging Neandrathals coming in with "Heh...I wish I was a dove in a bra...Hehehe..." while elbowing his buddies at his clever wit.
That alone is reason enough.
Gwyd
randirain
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Nice post Gwyd, Thanks.

I can't say much more than what Margarette and Gwyd have said.
Other than they are right and I agree.

I have ran into many of the same problems.

The other day I was at my favorite hang out.
This guy I used in a show awhile back, who I totally blew away, was introducing me to this other guy.
He said she is an awesome magician.
The guy gave a snicker, and a nonbelieving "really?"

So I got not only, "a magician, who cares" reply.
But a, "girl magician, she must ****" reply.
And the guy got a, "your an idiot if you were fooled by a woman" reply.
All from a snicker and one word.

I didn't say a word, turned around, and went back to talking with my friends.

Randi
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Cinnamon
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@Gwyd: Wah.. you didn't have to.

In our place, it is odd to see someone working on magic. Female magicians are, well, the only visible magicians the public could see. They are the ones who demonstrate magic items on malls. Asked if they are a magician, they'd say no. They're just selling. A woman in Robinson's asked me once if I were selling gaffs, etc, etc and if I would lke to trade my tally ho with them. Anyway, I said no. In our country, I know of only 2 female magicians. The others are assistants. The 2 here consists of a daughter who inherited her father's brilliant skills, the other one is a hobbyist who's addicted to bill switches. There are others, but I have not known them yet, as based from their pictures, I'd rather be solitary. (I'm an insecure girl. hehehe)
Magicians, well, male magicians here don't ask me if I do magic. I don't know why, perhaps, it's natural for them to see women in their industry. But perhaps, it's also because of my magic family (manila famiglia) and the boss (rannie). Being within the manila famiglia, and being in the boss' tavern is a huge proof-no questions needed- to show that I too am inside the circle of life (insert lion king theme here)
Dr Spektor
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The more diversity and specialized views to magic is always a bonus. Why a women forum? Then why a mentalism, gambling, or whatever else forum? Likely there would be only the for sale and a general comments forum with that thinking.

The reason I look at this forum is the same reasons I look at almost on the forums on the Café - one can learn all sorts of things from perspectives of others. I think this forum should be under special interests rather than odds and ends because personally "odds and ends" is not what the threads in this forum are about.

I have learned a lot from mostly lurking on this forum regarding professionalism, showpersonship, issues that atually effect many diverse populations, and just becoming familiar with more friends in magic.

Audiences are not usually 100% male either...

Well, what am I going on about since we all agree.

All I can say is if you take a petition to move this to special interest, I'll sign.

I also think, IMHO, the forum should be called "WOMEN IN MAGIC" or something similar vs. one for the ladies - it seems somehow to connote something given to appease "ladies"...

Well, all I want to say that we males have a lot we can learn about magic from females.

Fare ye well.

Dr S
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
Sylver Fyre
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Thank you so much Dr S. You are absolutely right on the name. I didn't even really think about it but yes "one of the ladies" does send a subliminal message.

And so true, people do learn from diversity.

Thank you for the well written post!
Sylver Fyre

"Do not warm yourself by the fire, become the flame"
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gsidhe
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Just an update...
The promotional info on the website about our show...
It has been changed to "A family-friendly comedy and variety show featuring the fire-eating Sylver and her partner the master daredevil Gwydion."
She even got top billing!
Much happier now.
Gwyd
Bill Nuvo
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I agree with Dr S. I didn't even think of the name thing. You can add me to signing a petition.

In genereal I find watching magic from female magicians to be better than most male magicians. I think it might have to do with the extra thought that has to go into performing certain effects due to the unique problems women face. They also seem to be more artistic.

I have never been comfortable having an assistant, male or female. I like to have a partner who contributes equally to performing. Gwyd and Sylver, I applaud your partnership.
airship
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For a century, magicians were exclusively white guys in tuxedos who mostly strutted and postured with canes and wands while their scantily-clad female 'assistants' crammed themselves into tiny spaces in boxes, trunks, and cabinets, making all the right moves at exactly the right times.

So who were the real magicians?

Don't take any crap, ladies. You've earned your right to some respect.
'The central secret of conjuring is a manipulation of interest.' - Henry Hay
Autumn Morning Star
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Excellent points, Margarette! I have been to magic conventions with my husband and the dealers often address him instead of me. I just wait patiently and listen and when they ask him what sort of magic he does, he blindsides them with: "I am the assistant. SHE is the magician." After we make the rounds, you can bet the dealers remember to check their attitudes, because I only buy from the ones who address me directly. I vote with my dollars.

The name "One for the Ladies" never seemed like a good name to me, either. I usually use the tool of taking words "out of context" to see if they sound appropriate. For example, you would not find a column named: "One for the Christians" or "One for the Clowns", nor would you file them under "Odds and Ends".

To Airship, MrBill, Dr. Spector, and Gwyd, thanks for your support. A well-placed pm to Steve Brooks would be greatly appreciated. It takes great courage to make positive changes.
Thanks,
Autumn
Wonder is very necessary in life. When we're little kids, we're filled with wonder for the world - it's fascinating and miraculous. A lot of people lose that. They become cynical and jaded, especially in modern day society. Magic renews that wonder.
Doug Henning
Destiny
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I must remember only to bring 'other' worldly traditions into the Café.

I don't think Harry Potters career as a jockey is going to go far.

He'll never win a race the way he's riding that horse.

Destiny

Now there's a Harry Potter reference I hope very few get.
Cinnamon
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After being silent for a day, I’d now like to butt in the conversation. Please, bear with this long-ish post. This is my opinion only, if it somehow trespasses yours, please, send me a PM.


First, let us define being ‘sexist’ one by one.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexist)
According to wikipedia, sexism has these ff symptoms.

1. The belief that one sex is superior to or more valuable than the other.

Have you noticed any post, as in anything, which stated that women are better than men when it comes to magic? I haven’t seen any. If you did, please, I’d be glad if you’d point it to me. So far, the posts here indicate the general belief that women in magic are not ‘that good’. Did anyone claim that our gender is superior than our opposite?

2. The attitude of misandry (hatred of males)

We don’t hate males. In fact, without males, there would be no females. Without males, well, perhaps no one would discover the latest sleights, moves, effects etc. Of course, the male specie dominate this field, and we give credit to them. We don’t hate them. At this point, please re-read randirain’s post (3rd from the top). Given her situation, did she, in any way, acted like she loathes the opposite sex? No. Instead, she simply avoided the situation. This is what most of the women here do: avoid confrontation, and keep silent. Again, if you have seen any post with a message which says “I HATE MALES!” please, notify us all.

3. A feeling of distrust towards the opposite sex, most frequently operating at unconscious level.

If this is the case, no males would ever, EVER post here. Anyway.. we do not feel distrust. Sometimes, we just feel a bit uncomfortable. Put yourself in our high-heels, mister. What if you’re in the female-dominated industry (say… uhm.. being a beautician or something?) wouldn’t you feel uncomfortable being surrounded, and crowded over by those who belong to the separate gender? (some may be happy but.. yeah.. whatever…)

We do not have ANDROPHOBIA (fear of anything masculine). In fact, at times, in order to adjust, we have to be ‘males’, and when we assume our anima, we don’t hate ourselves. We love ourselves even more, I suppose?

Now that I guess the issue about ‘sexism’ is kind of cleared up… let’s proceed to the next part of your statement.


There are only few females here, and most of them don’t frequent the boards. Tight schedules, perhaps. But that doesn’t mean that they are a bit skeptic on posting in this thread, or in the One For The Ladies forum. Now, let’s go to the next statement… a forum specially for males…

Let me ask you something. What things do guys do that girls can’t? What’s so distinct about their presentations, that women can’t catch up with? Please, site some examples. What topics do men need to talk about especially, that women can’t grasp?

I’d give you an example on our side.

In here, we discuss alternative things fitted for our gender. Like using the bra (males, don’t smirk) as a substitute, using compacts, using GIRLY STUFF for magic. As far as I know, most things used by males are also used by females. HOWEVER, most things used by females… are.. uhm.. used by.. well, ‘some, or only a few’ males. Here’s our forum. Here’s where we discuss OUR similarities. Of course, it’s kind of embarrassing to post in other threads regarding which brassiere brands are good for this and that… I hope you get my drift.

Of course, males may have their own forums. And we females have no right to question that, if any is to be formed. However, I would like to ask… what ‘special things and situations’ would they talk about?

And lastly…

“the whole point of having a magic site like this is to get closer to people that share a common interest. it would be best if we didn't bring worldly traditions into this Café, since this a non-"muggle" zone.”

First of all, I LOVE harry potter, but I don’t like to see Dan-R naked in Equis. Haha.

Anyway… yes, you’re correct. Bring all the magical folks together and form a huge family. However… do you think men would be very interested, and the ‘interest level’ would be common once we girls talk about lip gloss, make up, heels, stockings, brassiers, lingerie, and the likes? Well.. it MAY be, but I’m not sure about the impact of that.

Worldly traditions like what? Like women, talking about their ‘rights’? Like women petitioning for more recognition? It’s everybody’s right, actually. What made this thread special, anyway, you may ask?

It’s by the women, of the women and for the women. Or whatever sequence it may be.

Just my thought. I hope you got it, and I hope I made sense. If I didn’t, please, tell me in PMs.

Have a great day
Cyssa
Autumn Morning Star
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Well-said, Cyssa.
Wonder is very necessary in life. When we're little kids, we're filled with wonder for the world - it's fascinating and miraculous. A lot of people lose that. They become cynical and jaded, especially in modern day society. Magic renews that wonder.
Doug Henning
Cinnamon
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Thanks dear. Ihope it was not offending in any way.
Sylver Fyre
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Agreed, well written Cyssa!


Oh and Plastic D, your comment made me smile.
Sylver Fyre

"Do not warm yourself by the fire, become the flame"
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Sekhmet
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Margarette, you make some great points and I agree with every one of them.

But, in regards to some of the side-chatter that's been going on:
Some of you may have already seen my post about the placement of the board. There isn't really a better place to put it, as special interests is for different kinds of magic, not so much the people that perform it.
Also, what's so wrong with the name?
One for the Ladies. A board for women. He IS appeasing the girls (and the men who suggested it) because, as someone already said, there was a PETITION for a women's section. Granted, it's a great idea, but now that you've been given one thing it seems you want a million others. Can you not be happy with things the way they are?

There is nothing demeaning about the name of the board, in my opinion.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Lily of the Valley Carnie
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Hola chicas. I'm so happy that we have this section. It's the kind of place that we need. Sure, the boys will be playing here too, it seems, but oh well. I like this idea, and, it makes my eyes twinkle to be a part of it.

While it is true that we are all magicians, we are different. Personally, I think that magic needs more of a women's touch. In fact, I'm sure as more of us get into it that the art will truly blossom like it never has before, simply because we think differently.

I like the idea of bringing a more yin (a Chinese term partially indicating feminine among other things), approach to magic. It makes the magic softer and less forced. And here, in a site like this, we can talk to each other and share our unique perceptions.

Let's look at the most obvious, words. For many people, words are words and what is spoken or written is what matters. But as we girls know, there is more to communicating than just words. So sure, any boy can read our posts, but will he really get the emotions of what we are talking about? Perhaps he will, maybe not. But that is why having a place we can call home is kind of nice.

I want to see magic grow and blossom. I want to see it flow like the tao.

And, I think that here is as good a place as any to start such a dream.

Love,

Lily of the Valley
greenladymagic
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Quote:
On 2007-03-01 15:38, airship wrote:
For a century, magicians were exclusively white guys in tuxedos who mostly strutted and postured with canes and wands while their scantily-clad female 'assistants' crammed themselves into tiny spaces in boxes, trunks, and cabinets, making all the right moves at exactly the right times.

So who were the real magicians?

Don't take any crap, ladies. You've earned your right to some respect.


This reminds me of something I read that humorously (but accurately) pointed out that between Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire, Ginger was the better dancer.

She was able to do everything Fred Astaire could do plus she was often going backwards and dancing in high heels.
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