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patrick flanagan
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I would hope that he gave the restaurant a free night or two. I can't believe he is still employed by them.
Patrick
Rimbaud
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My favorite fire story:

Years ago, I worked in a magic-themed restaurant. One night, after hours, one of the performers was videotaping a rehearsal of his act on the small stage. He had just added that flaming bag trick, that thing where you pour lighter fluid in a cloth bag, light it, snuff out the flames, and then tear open the bag to produce a dove.

Apparently he used a little too much lighter fluid that night, and when he tore it open he produced a flaming dove. (As any one here seen a dove on fire before? Not a pretty sight.)

Everyone was just glad that it was after hours and there weren't real patrons there.

To make matters worse, he had borrowed the dove from his boss...
http://www.DanLaddthehypnotist.com
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Lee Darrow
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Quote:
On 2007-08-02 00:14, Starrpower wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-07-26 10:53, Lee Darrow wrote:
Starrpower, when you drive your car, I assume that you have insurance, right?


That makes absolutely no sense.

What you're saying is an irresponsible act is okay as long as you're insured? How absurd.

There were 42,642 traffic deaths in the U.S. last year. I could find no deaths due to fire wallets. Yet you claim we are being more responsible driving -- the act that killed off the equivilent of a small city in a single year -- simply because we carry car insurance?

My point is, yeah, you might be taking a risk using fire, but it's an extremely small risk. So small that related statistics do not even exist. You risk far more getting to and from the gig than you do actually performing fire magic at that gig. Yet, you still think one act is acceptable and the other is not, based on what? The fact that you carry insurance?

And, Danny, YES! It would get attention, and people would talk about it. We are, after all, entertainers. Getting attention and being discussed is a pretty strong reason for performing an effect ... especially one that people also find entertaining. They enjoy it. I'm paid to entertain people in an enjoyable fashion.


Okay, let me try this in a less snarky manner than my last post.... I was having a bad brain day when I posted it. Maybe I can make my analogy a bit better and a bit more clear while addressing the issue at hand - and please understand that I am NOT aiming this at anyone in specific... My point was to raise the issue of coverage protecting the performer AND the public and whether your coverage would be void if you performed using fire or not. The analogy about the car was brought up and I'd like to address that as I've run into it before and it is one that seems to make sense to a lot of people.

There is a big difference in driving a car - an act which is legally licensed and regulated and which requires insurance in most states, and in using fire in a restaurant in violation of state, county or local fire codes.

Having performer's liability insurance, something that most pros do have, does not protect a performer from claims against them, personally, should they use fire in violation of local, state or county fire regulations - as is generally stated in just about any liability insurance policy. Any act which is in violation of the terms of the policy can negate coverage - and that makes the PERFORMER DIRECTLY LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES THAT MIGHT HAPPEN. In other words, if somebody gets hurt, or any property gets damaged, the costs will come out of YOUR pocket, NOT your insurance company's!

So, using fire in a restaurant in violation of fire codes often will void your liability insurance in most cases - see the individual policy for specifics.

This is exactly the same thing that happens to one's automobile insurance policy if one uses one's vehicle in any act of a criminal nature (violation of fire codes is usually at LEAST a Class B misdemeanor according to the fire code web sites I've looked at - in many it ranges up to a Class A misdemeanor and even into felony ranges, depending on whether injuries happen). If you use your vehicle in the commission of a crime, your insurance is null and void as well. Read the policy as some vary, but this is pretty much industry standard practice as it limits liability and protects the insurers from trying to pay out for damages done in the commission of crimes (barring such things as simple traffic violations, parking tickets, etc, which don't rise to that level of violation, of course - see policy for details).

So, while driving a car may well be a slightly dangerous thing to do, one has to have insurance to protect one's self and property, as well as the people who may be involved in any incident that may happen during the legal operation of the vehicle in question, whereas, if the vehicle is being operated in the commission of a crime - the OPERATOR as well as possibly the owner of the vehicle will almost always be UNINSURED and hence not only will the public be unprotected by that insurance, but so will they.

The analogy to performing should be pretty obvious (at least I hope so, if not, PM me and I'll do my best to explain further) - perform within the fire codes and you are probably covered (unless your policy has a specific exemption for fire in general - at which point you should not be performing with fire at all - or should get specific insurance coverage FOR fire performance), but if you perform in violation of those codes, you may well NOT be covered and the same lack of protection to you AND the public that I mentioned above applies with regards to your performance.

And that can cost you everything you own, will ever own and could ever own.

So, the question remains - is that a chance that ANY of us are willing to take?

Again, please understand that I am NOT aiming this at any one individual and that, while I AM an Illinois licensed life insurance agent, I am NOT a licensed property, casualty and liability insurance agent in ANY state and am merely noting what appears on my own insurance and on what I have observed on several sites that are involved with fire regulations and insurance.

ALWAYS consult a licensed professional insurance agent or your insurer on any specific questions that you may have about your own coverage or any coverage that you are considering.

Safety first and always cover your assets!

Honest, folks, I'm trying to help, here. Really...!

Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2007-08-03 06:23, Vayron wrote:
A friend of mine use flash paper for produce sponge balls. But 2 month ago the flash paper fell on a 250$ silk shirt ... Fortunatly for him the company paid the shirt. Now when he produce his sponge balls he's 1 step behind the table ...


Slow learner, eh?

The company should have made him pay for the shirt. And they should have fired him, especially if he didn't learn not to use fire in a restaurant.

Ah, well. He may make the Darwin awards before too long.
"The Swatter"

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Dannydoyle
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Well Bill, Darwin never said "Survival of the smartest" now did he?

This guy reminds me of that lab rat that takes the corn with the electricity time and time again never learning!

The paper burnt a shirt. He was lucky. The company paid for it, and he has no other solution but to step back one foot. If he had taken out the guys eye, he would step back 1 1/2 steps I bet.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
patrick flanagan
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Lee,
Insurance talk....zzzzzzzzzzzzz....lol....that's about as exciting as watching David Blaine in a block of ice.
Patrick
Lee Darrow
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Yep, Patrick, it's boring. No doubt about it.

But rehearsals can be boring, so can practicing a single sleight for hours on end.... Smile

But if you don't do it, you can still wind up on the short end of the wand...!

And nobody wants that... at least I don't think that they do... I hope that they don't...

So, boring it may be. But, like practicing and rehearsing, it's also necessary.

And I'm about as thrilled about that as I was watching a certain person float around in a fishbowl for several weeks... LOL!

Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
patrick flanagan
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Hhhmmm....i still like practicing and rehearsing. Certainly more fun than watching a certain person stand on a very small spot, very high in the air for many hours....lol. Off topic, but, I do miss that certain person actually doing magic. And I was just messing with ya, Lee. I know it is essential, boring, but essential.
Patrick
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Quote:
On 2007-08-03 06:23, Vayron wrote:
A friend of mine use flash paper for produce sponge balls. But 2 month ago the flash paper fell on a 250$ silk shirt ... Fortunatly for him the company paid the shirt. Now when he produce his sponge balls he's 1 step behind the table ...


If 3rd or any degree burn had happened, a BIG lawsuit would have come forth.

Fire is a bad idea!
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2007-08-04 02:46, Lee Darrow wrote:
Yep, Patrick, it's boring. No doubt about it.

But rehearsals can be boring, so can practicing a single sleight for hours on end.... Smile

But if you don't do it, you can still wind up on the short end of the wand...!

And nobody wants that... at least I don't think that they do... I hope that they don't...

So, boring it may be. But, like practicing and rehearsing, it's also necessary.

And I'm about as thrilled about that as I was watching a certain person float around in a fishbowl for several weeks... LOL!

Lee Darrow, C.H.


Lee is right it is boring. On the other hand ambulances, and such are quite exciting. Fire trucks, and so forth LOL.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2007-08-04 01:52, patrick flanagan wrote:
Lee,
Insurance talk....zzzzzzzzzzzzz....lol....that's about as exciting as watching David Blaine in a block of ice.
Patrick


Don't read it then. Nobody forces you to read anything.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Vayron
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Quote:
On 2007-08-04 11:29, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
If 3rd or any degree burn had happened, a BIG lawsuit would have come forth.

Fire is a bad idea!



Fortunately for him it was only a small hole in the shirt. He perform this effect since 2 years at least, but this time a very small piece of flashpaper fell. No luck for him.
patrick flanagan
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Relax Bill, it was a friendly jab. I thought I made that obvious.
Patrick
Dilanyan
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I Do "In a flash" At the Café I work at, and It gets really good reactions, Once when I did it,
You could hear a guy from the other table go like"
Holy S**T, that's the guy from Fantastic four!!"

-Dilanyan
echomagic
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Dilanyan,

I would be afraid to use fire at a restaurant because you would be able to hear a guy from the other table go like "Holy S***T, that's the guy from Engine Four!!"
merlin5150
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As a Professional Firefighter and Juvenile Firesetter Intervention Specialist I must say that the majority of you have the right frame of mind, it's just not a good idea why? plenty of reasons posted, Good ones! You truly are taking your chances and CAN'T possibly predict what fire WILL WANT TO DO! also, I mentioned my title as JFS Specialist because you wouldn't want your name to be mentioned by a little boy or girl that's house had just burned down or worse, because they saw the magician do it! It will not matter all that they have seen elsewhere, doesn't matter that they weren't at the same table, maybe they were in another part of the restaurant and you never saw them, that's all that they would have to say. Would you want that on your conscience? Not to mention a visit from me? Have fun with your flash paper boys! Jeff
Dannydoyle
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Jeff you bring up the point I didn't want too and it is huge.

Often kids immitate what they see. Thanks.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Bill Palmer
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It happens more often than you would think. When I was a kid, the sister of a friend of mine died from burns she received when she was playing "wedding" with some friends. She had gotten hold of a veil and some candles. The kids lit them. As they were pretending to walk down the aisle, a breeze caught the veil and nudged it into a candle flame. In a matter of seconds, the nylon veil had turned into a cocoon.

People don't think about the consequences of a stray flame or a stray spark. When I worked for the Texas Renaissance Festival, usually the last two weeks of the season coincided with the first really cold weather. If you were camping out, there was a chance that your pillow would freeze!

There was and is a strict rule against fires in the campgrounds there. I can't tell you how many fires I had to put out when I was on staff there. Nobody seems to realize what happens when a spark from a fire hits a piece of ripstop nylon. A ripstop nylon tent can become a flaming hell in a matter of a minute or two. If you are asleep in it, you don't stand a chance.

So, let's put this into a restaurant context. You are doing a flash card revelation. Your flashpaper burns more slowly than usual and lands on a lady's scarf. It catches fire. I guarantee you that you will not be able to get it off her neck before it goes completely up in flames.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
merlin5150
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Thanks for sharing that story, I hope this thread gives a little dose of reality and gives a new perspective on the use of fire in our acts. Jeff
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2007-08-12 12:33, merlin5150 wrote:
Thanks for sharing that story, I hope this thread gives a little dose of reality and gives a new perspective on the use of fire in our acts. Jeff


Yea let me know how that works out LOL!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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