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lynnef Inner circle 1407 Posts 
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One reason I like Ammar's tapes so well is that they've culled through the thick books to give a wide variety of effects that go well in routines. and he also explains the history of the trick (eg how 'Oil and Water' evolved into 'Oil and Queens' ... a better version of the trick).
I also have admiration for David Regal's material ... and some of these effects are very strong (don't you love it when audience's gasp "no way!"?). Yet he plays it with humility and humor. He brings you some advanced sleights as well. that said, it's also fun to just browse through the thick books in hope of finding that one trick or effect that seems special to you. |
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incompletefaro Regular user Plano, TX 135 Posts
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I would suggest taking a look at Steve Beam's Semi-Automatic Card Tricks series.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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What specifically do you find antiquated in Hofzinser's material? That today we do the assembly with aces instead of kings? Or perhaps that today we have USPC cards with slick finishes instead of the hand printed things he was using?
Simply dismissing his works without reading them, or those of Karl Germain or Nate Leipzig because they are over a century old seems shortsighted. As to where to start... that depends on your goals. If you want to be spoon fed, and wind up a hothouse flower in this craft, go ahead and get the ready made courses of study. But if you want to learn some about the art... you may want to simply explore the works of those who have pretty much defined the art. Not the devotees of clever but those who were and area dedicated to performing EFFECT. A tip for the students of the art: find out WHY they did what they did and then consider what you need to do.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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mc_magi Special user Vancouver, BC 949 Posts
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Jonathan - putting things into music, would you suggest a beginner flautist that he learns how to play the flute using Bach's material? How about a pianist learning to play using the textbooks that was used in the early days?
I know it is a MUST to study the history and learn sleights from the classic material, but I think getting a little more familiar with the craft before delving into it would be beneficial. Of course I'm not saying go and buy the latest materials out there, but there are many texts which suit the OP better than the books you suggested IMO. I personally know, from fighting through Expert at the Card Table and Expert Technique during the days when I was first beginning to be interested in magic, that it is very hard to understand values of what's been written. I am only beginning to understand whats between the lines now. To the OP, don't get things like army of 52 - everything on that tape can be learnt from pages in the books suggested above. |
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Mark Wilden.jpg "View Profile") Veteran user San Francisco 375 Posts
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I've been arguing in another thread that the best way to learn presentation of effects is to start out with self-working tricks that don't emphasize the method of sleights.
///ark |
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scorch Inner circle 1480 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-03-06 22:16, Jonathan Townsend wrote: What part of "I totally support the idea of going through the antiquated resources" don't you understand? How could you possibly read that (and other statements to that effect) and come out with the opposite notion, that I would suggest "dismissing" them "without reading them?" It's hard to intelligently debate the matter if you aren't even going to read what you are responding to. Quote:
On 2007-03-06 23:05, mc_magi wrote: Yes to the first one, no to the second. Instrumentalists are much more accomplished now than ever before, and a modern orchestra is centuries ahead of orchestras that were recorded in the early 20th century. This is because much better methods of teaching are used today than a century ago. By all means every instrumentalist should become familiar with Bach's music, just as every magician should become familiar with Hofsinzer and Erdnase, etc. But to start them out with only the material that was available in Bach's time, or Hofzinser's, is to do a modern student a significant disservice. Better materials are available now, which include the wisdom of more recent masters as well. Why not start out with the best of all of the best? Why would anybody want to limit themselves to the oldest resources when starting out? A more comprehensive approach is much better. After all, some of the work of Hofzinser and Erdnase is represented in Card College. Giobbi's masterpiece of pedagogy is hardly the Johnny Come Lately "hothouse flower" resource that Mr. Townsend claims. I wonder if he is even familiar with it. |
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mc_magi Special user Vancouver, BC 949 Posts
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Yes to the first, no to the second Sorry, I think I misrepresented my idea - the 2nd statement was the same thing as the 1st: So I meant to say - should a flautist start learning flute using the material available in Bach's day? I am always really bad at making analogies... maybe I should quit trying. |
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scorch Inner circle 1480 Posts
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On 2007-03-07 00:22, mc_magi wrote: As a professional musician and teacher, I can tell you that the same point I'm trying to get across about Mr. Townshend's inexpert recommendations holds just as true in music. Bach was not the only great composer, just like Hofzinser was not the only great magician of history. So to start with them just because they were great and ahead of their time is nonsensical and arbitrary. Any reasonable music teacher would of course include some of the works of Bach in a course of study, just as any good course of card magic would include relevant works of Hofzinser (and Erdnase, Vernon, Marlo, Ascanio, et al - just as Card College does). But no reasonably competent teacher of music would limit a beginning student to only material by Bach, or even all that was available in Bach's time. Some of Bach's material is not appropriate for beginners, just as much of Erdnase' and Hofzinser's work is best approached by more experienced hands and minds. Even as a point of departure it would be foolish to "start out" a student with just Bach, especially if the student isn't automatically given to relating to Bach just yet. Why not Mozart, Chopin, Debussy, or Scriabin if the student is more inspired in those directions? Similarly, why not Jennings? Why not Marlo? Why not Tamariz? Many of these other more recent masters have work that is more appropriate and fruitful for aspiring card magicians. Card College includes much of it, including intelligent handlings of nearly every major plot in card magic history (many that were unknown in Hofzinser's day). Why deny a student of magic the full breadth and depth of what card magic has to offer? For the teaching of music history, it is normal to start with the earliest written music, and go forward in time chronologically. And of course all aspiring musicians must do so in order to better understand the evolution of the art and to play in an informed way (such a need is no different in magic). But certainly for the teaching and training of musical performance, any chronological approach would simply be a foolish way to build a basic technique. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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To "scorch"... the question was where to start and where to look. I suggested and continue to recommend LOOKING at the origins to see what folks were thinking about so you (the student) can follow a similar pattern to think about what would be useful today.
To be fair, I'd suggest a wannabe magician start their studies in the theater and do a few plays. After they have the basics of reading scripts, working with other actors and taking direction and some time in front of an audience... the particular requirements of conjuring would be less distracting from the performing. I'd suggest a student set their sights on performers whose works they feel would approximate what they want to perform for an audience. Then find the base mechanics of the tools which suit that style of card handling. BTW, teaching material that is not of your own invention and without permission is hardly a laudable feat in a craft built upon secrets. The very act of offering a "Card College" on our open market was a heinous act of exposure. If you have any doubt of this, go look in the places where folks can find "stuff" and confirm for yourself that these books are publicly accessible and thanks to the internet they will remain freely accessible to all who wish. * addendum I agree that if you want technical descriptions in most legible format... go with modern sources and the Giobbi collection looks like a good place to start when seeking the "how to" for a sleight. No argument there.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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karbonkid Special user 951 Posts
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The Giobbi work goes even deeper than the 'how to' though, JT. There are entire chapters of Card College on presentation alone, and every single effect in the entire series has well thought out patter, and execution with built in misdirection. As you might say, it's well 'scripted'.
And you figure that Card College is 5 volumes and some of the older texts are only one. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-03-06 23:05, mc_magi wrote: I have access to some authorities in that subject. My father is a classical musicologist (yeah Douglas even has a wiki entry) so I grew up with this stuff. Presuming we are starting with a youngster and not some dolt who will need to overcome personal issues before being able to attend the muses... From what I've seen, one starts by developing an ear for the sound of ones instrument in use by others. Usually before picking up the instrument oneself. Then come exercises and pieces with a simple structure so the student can learn the basics of melody and harmony and get some positive reinforcement for accomplishments along the way. So... whether someone enjoys classical music or want to be another Ian Anderson... I'd go with the "listen then learn" approach. Folks, aside from the exposure/ethical issue associated with the work, I will reserve pedagogical opinion on Card College till I've met some folks who learned from it and see how they are doing and where they want to go. That may be another few years in coming. Till then, I know they are widely available and hope for the best as far as what folks will learn from them. I can tell you that I would not recommend anyone reading the older books including "Erdnase" as primary "do as they say" material as a beginning student of this craft. Both works are IMHO very concerned with the author and not so much with educating the student to use the material described.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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scorch Inner circle 1480 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-03-07 09:07, Jonathan Townsend wrote: But why would you recommend a completely different approach to magic then? You recommend a sensible approach to learning music, after all. Such an approach in magic would indeed be sensible. First watch a lot of great performances of magic so that you can understand the experience and feeling that you are trying to create in your audience. Then learn some simple sleights (exercises) and effects (pieces) with a simple structure so the student can learn the basics of construction and presentation (melody and harmony) and get some positive reinforcement for accomplishments along the way. You certainly wouldn't recommend that a beginning pianist, for instance, start out with the Well-Tempered Klavier. Yet you are effectively doing just that when you recommend starting out with the Hofzinser's Card Conjuring. Of course any pianist needs to spend a lot of time - hundreds and probably thousands of hours - with the two Well-Tempered Klavier books, just as any serious magician needs to eventually contend with Hofzinser. But it's an odd and unfortunate recommendation to make to a student of card magic as a first resource. Quote:
On 2007-03-07 08:27, Jonathan Townsend wrote: You remind me of a famous anecdote about Mozart. An aspiring young composer asked him how he himself might be able to write operas as great as Mozart's. Mozart told him, "well, first of all you need to write a lot of counterpoint exercises, and then a dozen good string quartets or so to learn structure. Write a few good song cycles to learn about text setting, and then several symphonies to get the feel for the orchestra. It would also be good if you learned to play most of the instruments in the orchestra." The young person said "but Herr Mozart, you never did any of that before you wrote your first opera." Mozart said, "Ah, but I never asked anybody what I should do before writing my first opera." The lesson is, of course, that it would be wonderful if an aspiring card magician worked in the theater, and did all that you mentioned before even picking up a deck of cards. But let's just stick to real world advice, and recommend a good source for the poor guy to learn some sleights and effects like he asked, OK? Quote:
BTW, teaching material that is not of your own invention and without permission is hardly a laudable feat in a craft built upon secrets. The very act of offering a "Card College" on our open market was a heinous act of exposure. That's an odd statement if there ever was one. May I presume that you have no books at all in your library, since the very act of publishing a magic book is "a heinous act of exposure." Oh, and by the way, Hofzinser is available online. That isn't also a "heinous act of exposure." You should have just saved us the time all along and let us know that you just have a weird issue about publishing magic books (Card College isn't in Barnes & Noble, last I checked). I thought we were discussing what a good book was to start out learning card magic. You had a weird hidden agenda all along. I should have recognized that. Quote:
If you have any doubt of this, go look in the places where folks can find "stuff" and confirm for yourself that these books are publicly accessible and thanks to the internet they will remain freely accessible to all who wish. Even in your lifetime, books on magic were "freely available to all who wish(ed)" to buy them, whether it was at a local library or mail order through Flosso Hornmann. I'm not going to debate with you whether or not that represents "heinous exposure," but it's certainly nothing new. Why should anybody who wishes to learn card magic have a good reference with which to do so? |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Scorch, I'm only suggesting the read/look to see what someone long ago thought to do. A way to set one's sights on the stars so to speak.
Quote:
On 2007-03-07 09:44, scorch wrote:...it would be wonderful if an aspiring card magician worked in the theater, and did all that you mentioned before even picking up a deck of cards. But let's just stick to real world advice, and recommend a good source for the poor guy to learn some sleights and effects like he asked, OK?... If the person already has the social skills... fine, there are books of amusements. IF they want to learn card magic (as in take the step to become a magician) then they really do need to shift focus into the performing arts. Look at most in our craft.. fussing over the deck and occasionally looking up as if to check if the audience had wandered away... stating the obvious and emphasizing the evident as if the audience were inattentive and later expecting awe in return for a demonstration of what they claimed as skill. Hardly congruent or effective conjuring procedure and most get what they earn... the look on gives a child who misbehaves when seeking attention. That is the chasm between MOST and magic... getting over one's fussing and need for attention to bring magic TO the audience. A shift from "I enjoy doing it" to "leading a process to bring YOU something special".. the gift of magic. And that is not as easily taught as base mechanics. It is (IMHO) more easily learned in the theater then in the magic shop.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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karbonkid Special user 951 Posts
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I'm in agreement with Scorch.
Having read Royal Road and Erdnase, I laugh when people say that is where a new magician should start, as that will be one less magician around. I think they are a wonderfully in depth and great resource on the beginnings, but, I'm assuming those things would read as 'Greek' to new folks. And saying that things are 'readily' available, well, that's not the case either. Doing an internet search on 'magic' to return secrets is just as useful as doing a search on 't-shrits' to find a new one. There is far to much work in it than lay people (muggles) care to put in. They would rather put the key in the ignition and drive to work than to worry about the internal workings of a combustion engine, or the computer driven chips in a car that make braking possible. They just want to push the pedal...steer the car. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-03-07 10:01, karbonkid wrote: Agreed. Great resources but not a great way to start learning (to do) magic. I'd recommend a few minutes a week around someone who both loves magic and can effectively DO some tricks with cards, say Presto or Lou Lancaster ... someone who can use the tricks to make the magic happen for audiences.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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karbonkid Special user 951 Posts
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Actually, I think that could possibly be the best way to learn, JT.
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mc_magi Special user Vancouver, BC 949 Posts
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I think there's no "argument" here... from what I'm reading, you guys are almost in complete agreement minus few minor details - and there's plenty of description for anyone to see what the best way would be in learning the craft...
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Mark Wilden Veteran user San Francisco 375 Posts
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I would say that Royal Road and Erdnase are horses of a different color. You don't pick up the former to learn second dealing, nor the latter to do self-workers.
RRTCM is much more of a beginner's guide. Erdnase is better for experts. And while I now think that self-workers are a better place to start for beginners, I did in fact begin (and am still beginning) with RRTCM. ///ark |
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dodgechargerrt30 Regular user Kentucky 158 Posts
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I didn't want to read ALL THOOSE POSTS lol so I HOPE I'm not repeating but ...i too am new to magic and I too wanted nothing mroe than to be an expert with the cards but soon realized......wow I like other material SO MUCH MORE
I know a few tricks with the cards but I REALLY am interested in other things as well my advise to you would be to keep reading your mark wilson book its amazing there are enough tricks in there to keep you busy for a while Coins, Ropes, Silks, wow there is so much also if you like coins get bobo's I have it its great it REALLY HIT ME TODAY that I am VERY interested in STAGE illusions....when I get older and more financially stable I am going to do some....they cost so much though oh well enough about me this is just my 2 Cents lol Cards are wonderfull but I wouldnt start learning magic by doing card work DC
I have enough money to last me the rest of my life, unless I buy something
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-03-09 22:39, dodgechargerrt30 wrote: How do you expect to learn without reading?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Posted: Mar 7, 2007 01:35 am 
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