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Xiqual
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This is the email I recieved from Josh about NO ID
-----------------------------------------------------
"Hey man! Attached is a new effect going in my book and I would really appreciate it if you could post a review. Not sure if you're into card tricks ( I hate them!) but this is freaking people out.

Thanks!

JZ"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I checked it out, wrote to Josh that it was pretty good but I had seen it before. I was going to try to source where I had seen it.

I posted the review thinking it was a small part of a larger book.

That is my whole reason for writing anything negative.
James
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Mariagi
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Quote:
On 2007-04-25 18:05, Jim-Callahan wrote:
If you wish to cut and pate my post to make your point that is one thing but if you do so I request you offer your own proof.

After all I make it clear I did not pay for it and I offer my opinion.

You say it is not his so please offer up the proof.
(Name and were published)

Any one on this forum know who and what I am.

However you have the advantage on me for acording to you profile you are nothing but an opinion devoid of any substance.
(Only refering to you profile here)
That is fine by me but at least I offer proof and a track record to back it up.

Please offer the same if you desire to attack me.

-Jim

I don't wanna attack you and I bought some of your material which I think is good. you felt attacked because I expressed what is my opinion and its the opposite of yours

you are well known here yes and I could not compete with you because my name would tell nothing but that's a coward card to play because you count on your authority figure here. well let me tell you that while I like your material [i stated it] I know that you are a controversial individual so what you today push up tomorrow you will dig down and because you are known here you are also known for your "changes of heart" by by people reading this post.

I still maintain my point on mr.zandman latest "trick" and on you helping him
Jim-Callahan
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Mariagi,

I accept your position though I do not agree with it and I did wait a good deal of time before posting on this thread.

However I did not agree with your post and I felt I needed to reply.

However I am not pushing anything and only offered my opinion as you have done.

However personaly I do not know of the others who have put out anything like this effect.

I am requesting help or conformation of your position.

As to a cowards card I would once again state that I let others know who I am.
And have always been clear that I think profile information should be filled out.

My assesment of attack was based upon your post and the selective quoting of my post to make your point.

I have not problem with your last post for you answered me right out.
No selective quoting.

Hope you understand what I am getting at.

Best Wishes,

Jim
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nboisen
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Jim, I think you make two fine points
1. That magic is often more centered on the method (just the trick), whereas mentalism is about presenation.
2. That the presentation of NO ID is what makes it interesting, not the ingenuity of the method.

I, like many others, also do an effect using a similar method, but I will be the first to acknowledge that the presentational angle in Josh's version is far superior. As you (or someone else) posted, this could be played up as a 5 minute routine on its own and leaves a far deeper impression on the spectator than any quick trick version based on a similar method. And spectator impact via presentation is what it's all about.

I also recommended that to Josh in an email that he include his script and any other presentational subtelties in his write-up. I am sure many would benefit from that.

Great trick, Josh. Great comments, Jim.
jasons_mind
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I haven't posted much here, but read the forum regularly.

I do not have the effect, but Josh did all but practically give it away, so here are my thoughts for what they are worth.

There is one fundamental issue at heart here. The implied title and subsequent effect. The title of the effect is NO ID, i.e. - No Invisible Deck required. There is just one problem. There is a card manually selected. The invisible deck does not require such a process. The card is also returned to the deck, via a cut, which is also not required with ID. This is in a round about way - a falsehood of the NO ID effect.

I have no clue if the presentation is more involved than the original Invisible Deck presentation, but it does not appear to be.

So, what appears to be happening, is that an effect was released without the appropriate research being done. This effect is also on that is older than the hills and been toyed around with as much as any other effect out there. There are literally dozens of versions out there, so why not take the time to put your nose in a book.

So, just from appearances, this effect seems to be the standard "card reversal" plot, most likely with a common method.

Desktop publishing can be exciting, but also very limiting to one's credibility. Please do your research guys.
Carlos the Great
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Quote:
On 2007-04-25 18:12, Mariagi wrote:
I don't wanna attack you and I bought some of your material which I think is good. you felt attacked because I expressed what is my opinion and its the opposite of yours


Okay, everything makes sense so far. While I think correlating differing opinions with personal attacks shows a lack of maturity, I can understand how it happens.

Quote:
On 2007-04-25 18:12, Mariagi wrote:
you are well known here yes and I could not compete with you because my name would tell nothing but that's a coward card to play because you count on your authority figure here.


Uh...nope. You can make this argument all you want but it is completely meaningless. Do you actually know what you say is a fact? Do you have evidence? I am not somebody who puts a lot of information in my profile either and have stated such. Your reasoning just doesn't hold up. Much better to just say "I Don't want to share that information". That is a decent, reasonable answer. Your is... worthless.

Quote:
On 2007-04-25 18:12, Mariagi wrote:
well let me tell you that while I like your material [i stated it] I know that you are a controversial individual so what you today push up tomorrow you will dig down and because you are known here you are also known for your "changes of heart" by by people reading this post.


Wow, I couldn't believe it could get worse than your "authority figure argument" but, lo and behold, you went above and beyond in this one. Your argument is again flawed. I suppose I can understand why though. The idea of being able to change your opinion being a marker of intelligence has only recently come up ("Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change"- Confucius circa 490 BC). You probably were unfamiliar with even more recent thoughts on the matter ("Only the extremely ignorant or the extremely intelligent can resist change." - Socrates circa 420 BC).

The ability to change one's mind ("changes of heart" as you put it) is what we should all aspire to. I can't tell you how telling your post is of you as a person and as a member of society. I am deeply saddened and, quite honestly, will never look at any of your posts the same again.

Quote:
On 2007-04-25 18:12, Mariagi wrote:
I still maintain my point on mr.zandman latest "trick" and on you helping him


Maintain whatever you want, your opinion has lost significant value. And NOT on the basis of what your name or experience is, but that your arguments are weak and you subscribe to what I consider to be a dangerous and ignorant way of thinking.

My apologies if this offends, it was not written that way (in contrast to your posts).

-Carlos
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ted french
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Wild thing and louie louie are basically the same song yet they are both considered classics.
P3
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nboisen
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Quote:
"Wild thing and louie louie are basically the same song yet they are both considered classics."


Well said! Frankly, I am not sure what all the fuss is about. No one twisted anyone's arm to purchase the effect. This is, after all, not an officially published book claiming credit for originating a new method. I wonder if some people are not being a bit too strick in their demand for thorough research here. If no interesting creations can be offered informally to fellow magicians without exhaustive historical background check, then communication between colleagues -- especially on this forum -- will be severely impeded.

Just re-read Josh's posts here and you will see that he was genuinely so excited about this effect that he simply wanted it to offer it to colleagues on this forum in advance of his book. Again, no one twisted anyone's arm to purchase it. So what's all the fuss?
Xiqual
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Quote:
On 2007-04-27 04:16, nboisen wrote:
Quote:
"Wild thing and louie louie are basically the same song yet they are both considered classics."


Well said! Frankly, I am not sure what all the fuss is about. No one twisted anyone's arm to purchase the effect. This is, after all, not an officially published book claiming credit for originating a new method. I wonder if some people are not being a bit too strick in their demand for thorough research here. If no interesting creations can be offered informally to fellow magicians without exhaustive historical background check, then communication between colleagues -- especially on this forum -- will be severely impeded.

Just re-read Josh's posts here and you will see that he was genuinely so excited about this effect that he simply wanted it to offer it to colleagues on this forum in advance of his book. Again, no one twisted anyone's arm to purchase it. So what's all the fuss?


So it's ok to just republish material as single tricks for $10 a pop?
If you send any trick to Max Maven, he will reply in one day and help you credit it. I personally would like to see credits.

I think the main issue is people bought the trick in part because of the reviews that Jerome and I both posted. We did not know this was to be a single etrick for $10.
James
ps
I think this thread is talked out. what else is there to say?
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jlibby
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Well, have I missed something? Several people claim they have seen this effect before, but (unless I've missed a post) no one has offered any concrete evidence.

Joe L.
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Jim-Callahan
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I have read a lot of old stuff and this idea was new to me.
I have been waiting for the information also.

As per my other post.

J ack

H.o.A-X
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Xiqual
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Quote:
On 2007-04-27 19:24, jlibby wrote:
Well, have I missed something? Several people claim they have seen this effect before, but (unless I've missed a post) no one has offered any concrete evidence.

Joe L.


Hahaha. Sorry the prosecution rests. Concrete evidence?
You have all missed something if you think that is what this thread is about.
James
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Jim-Callahan
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I do and would like an answer.

Many have said it was done before and I don't know were or when.

So if the guys that offr this opinion would give me a refrence.

-J ack
“I can make Satan’s devils dance like fine gentlemen across the stage of reality”.
Tarbell Magic
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Jlibby and Jim-Callahan,

One of the most common card effects' published in many public magic books is the famous reversed card mystery:

To wit: A volunteer selects a card and commits it to memory. Meanwhile, the mentalist slyly reverses the bottom card of the deck (an easy task) before secretly flipping the entire deck over in his or her hands.

Result: To all intents and purposes the mentalist is innocently clutching a face down deck of cards and all is copasetic.

Of course this isn’t the reality of the situation.

Next, the spectator is instructed to push their selection face down into the middle of the deck. The mentalist, emphasizing that neither he nor she holds any breaks, spreads the deck across the table in a large sweeping arc – secretly turning the deck over in the process.

Conclusion: A face up spread with the face down selection in the middle. Wow.

*****

The reversed card concept (or effect) is as old as the hills and replete in the card literature (Hugard, Marlo, Vernon, Annemann etc.,) but here are two in particular that are worth studying:

90% Impromptu Brainwave (published in The Crimp by Jerry Sadowitz): Great Sadowitz thinking: a mentally selected card (not physically chosen) is found reversed in the deck. Can be performed with a borrowed deck. Brilliant!

Chinese Whispers (published in Mitox by Phill Smith): Deserves to become a classic; proxy mentally selected card (not physically chosen) is found reversed in the deck or in another location. Can be performed with a borrowed deck.

I think IBT, UNO, and Back to the Future are very good. I look forward to Josh Zandman’s future releases. However, NO ID was a let down in my opinion due to a lack of research of similar effects.

Martin
Xiqual
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Quote:
On 2007-04-27 21:01, Jim-Callahan wrote:
I do and would like an answer.

Many have said it was done before and I don't know were or when.

So if the guys that offr this opinion would give me a refrence.

-J ack


Hey Jim,
I said I had seen it before somewhere. It is not my job to do the research.
I did however send a write up to Max Maven asking for his help. If he answers, I'll post it here.

I will say this one last time and then besides a reply from Mr. Maven I am done with this thread.

Josh sent me an email saying he had an effect from his book that he wanted me to post a review for in the Caf?

BOOK,BOOK,BOOK!!!! Is that clear? HE SAID BOOK!!!!!! I don't care if the method is his an no one ever thought of it. If he was the first mentalist to do this I don't care.

I told him I thought I had seen this before and then I thought, "Ok, it's part of a larger book so he will probably give it to people like the other stuff he gave away."

I posted a positive review thinking it would be an incentive.

Furthermore, even if this was original. I stand by my retraction that it is NOT worth $10

Consider Triangle by Patrick Redford $35, three routines, all bulletproof performace pieces consisting of multiple phases. It is also a very cool comic book.

Anything by Paolo Cavelli. All Paolo's books run about $30 and contain a ton of useful material. I have them all and they are splendid.

Greg Arce Lost in thought. $60 more expensive but over 50 ideas that are all good.

Osterlind's DVD on the BCS $35 Do I even need to say anything?

This is it for me, you can all posture and hem and haw all you want.Suck up to your cronies all you want but I'm not going to do that EVER!

Sincerly,
James Linn

ps
As I was writing this, Max Maven replied to my email;

"I am currently in a hospital bed, and therefore nowhere near my library. But, yes, I have certainly seen this idea in print, more than once. You might wish to check Hugard's "Encyclopedia of Card Trick," as it may be in there.
Cordially,
Max Maven"
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Dr Spektor
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IF that is the effect i.e. a card is forced and then the classic reverse the card at the bottom of the stack with a couple of cuts - those are pretty much in every classic card handling book...

HOWEVER - not having read ID - maybe its the PRESENTATION that is unique? Like B2F has a nice presentation - but the methods are not unique...?

2 issues here: Book versus 1 effect for sale - seems that has been cleared up

Method Vs. Presentation - that seems unclear..


Having a unique presentation is still worth publishing if it is something fresh and new...

Having not read NO ID, beats me - but Zosh seems to be a creative thinker
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jlibby
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OK, yes! We get it! It's a single trick instead of a book!

And yes! I know about reversed card plots! But so far, nobody has offered any evidence that No ID isn't a unique application of the reversed card plot.

I am appreciative James posted Max Maven's reply. I will look through my copy of the Encyclopedia of Card Magic later. If I find anything, I'll let you all know. Otherwise, I have nothing more to add to this thread.

See ya!
Joe L.
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Virungan
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Hugard has an entire Chapter in the Encyclopedia on Reversal plots (Ch. 10 I think)- and they are all variations on a theme- which I guess Josh's also is- a new twist on an old plot, and there are plenty of effects on sale tahat fit that bill.

I'm in the same boat as Dr. Spektor and haven't read it, but I guess as Jim said- a variation on a theme is still good value if it works for you... if you don't like, then you're out 10 bucks...

As for the book vs. single effect debate- that would be between Josh and the guys he emailed...
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Mick Ayres
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Sorry to chime in here so late, gentlemen. I just learned of this thread yesterday while having lunch with Jim Callahan.

James, where you MAY have seen this effect before is in Paul Cummins book "...From A Shuffled Deck In Use...", (published in 1996) and later again in his "Acme Card Magic Workshop" instructions (published in 2000). The effect is called FLASHER and is quite brilliant (pun intended).

There are differences between the Paul's effect and Josh's version, according to the descriptions. I do not own Josh's effect and cannot comment on his method (though I have my suspicions). For one, in Paul's effect, the face-up card that suddenly appears in the deck also locates another selection in a very unexpected manner. Paul's version requires little or no skill, either.

The point is (again, according to the effect description), this has been done before.

That being said, however, there may be a simple directness to Josh's version that plays well. And, if that is what a customer is looking for, then our free-market system will eventually sort it all out.

Best,
Mick
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Xiqual
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Quote:
On 2007-04-28 10:52, Mick Ayres wrote:
Sorry to chime in here so late, gentlemen. I just learned of this thread yesterday while having lunch with Jim Callahan.

James, where you MAY have seen this effect before is in Paul Cummins book "...From A Shuffled Deck In Use...", (published in 1996) and later again in his "Acme Card Magic Workshop" instructions (published in 2000). The effect is called FLASHER and is quite brilliant (pun intended).

There are differences between the Paul's effect and Josh's version, according to the descriptions. I do not own Josh's effect and cannot comment on his method (though I have my suspicions). For one, in Paul's effect, the face-up card that suddenly appears in the deck also locates another selection in a very unexpected manner. Paul's version requires little or no skill, either.

The point is (again, according to the effect description), this has been done before.

That being said, however, there may be a simple directness to Josh's version that plays well. And, if that is what a customer is looking for, then our free-market system will eventually sort it all out.

Best,
Mick





I do have FASDIU [excellent book] and that may be it, not sure really.
Good points about the free-market Mickey.
James
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