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themindreader Loyal user 254 Posts |
Will let you see my injury next time!
I know that many performers rely upon an electronic method to do this effect - but I would have thought that using a magnetic ring to detect a magnetic spike should really be the safest way to perform it. We live and learn. Simon |
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
Simon
What I think is the main problem has to do with the effect itself. Say the object is under number 3, we think 3, 3, 3, so we can avoid it. But that is counter to our very nature. So when we are not paying attention, our subconscious mind sabotages us by doing what it is supposed to do, going after the very thing we are thinking about. Tony |
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James Warren Loyal user 241 Posts |
Simon, I'd really be interested to know if you come up with any theories as to how you messed it up. I noticed that you purchased the trick on May 10 and performed it on May 13. Not a lot of rehearsal time! I have found that with "easy method routines" I can be deceived into believing that the method is so easy I can go right out and perform it, and don't need to spend time thinking through all the possible things that could go wrong and how I'm going to handle them. I don't know if you feel like you fell victim to that deception, but I wonder if you got carried away with the emotion and drama of the presentation (especially with a routine like this), and assumed too many things about the method precisely because it seemed like such an easy method. When the method appears to be a "no-brainer" it's easy to underestimate it and not give it any "brain." Yet it's amazing how many unexpected kinks one discovers in even the simplest of routines once you're in front of an audience performing it. That's why I generally script EVERYTHING in my show. I know exactly what I'm going to say, and I work through all the blocking. The more I do the routine in front of an audience, the more I am able to ad lib and deviate from the original script: but I usually start by sitting down at the computer and developing a word-for-word script, regardless of how simple the method seems to be. I don't know if you do this or not, and I'm not saying it's absolutely necessary for everyone; but it does help prevent mishaps.
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James Warren Loyal user 241 Posts |
Tony, that's a GREAT insight!
Even despite the scripting and blocking process I just posted about, the first TWO times I performed Kurotsuke I screwed it up. I knew the order in which I was going to allow the six spectators to reach into the bag and withdraw a quarter. And of course in Kurotsuke it's the last two people who are crucial, and one of them then becomes the FIRST to open their hand. Despite all my livingroom rehearsing, instead of telling one of the last two people to open their hand, I approached one of the FIRST two people; and then, of course, I was screwed and had to rely totally on luck. (I ended up unlucky.) Amazingly, I made exactly the same mistake the second time I performed the routine in public (and again proved unlucky in the end!). I couldn't believe it! For some reason, in the heat of performance I just couldn't keep it straight. Now I quote Jesus to myself: "The last shall be first." And that helps my head to keep it straight. The method seemed like such a no-brainer, but in actual performance with six real live people on the stage, my brain kept wanting to go back to the first two spectators that had chosen quarters. |
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Hoff Man Loyal user Ohio 258 Posts |
Simon,
Glad to hear that you are doing all right … at least you weren’t catching a bullet. In my mind the only way that something like this would NOT seem like a trick, would be to let the audience choose which cups to smash, one at a time, (assuming they don’t know where the spike is). To me, that is a much stronger presentation. I understand what Tony is talking about too, which makes these routines much more dangerous than either the audience or performer believe they are. In the meantime, that scar on your hand can only help to sell the effect in the future, (if you still perform it... you have to decide if you got lucky yesterday ... or if your luck is running out). Steve |
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Roth Inner circle The 18 5090 Posts |
I don't have spike because I created and use the scorpion, so I'm curious as to why someone would slam their hand down on a cup without knowing by some "signal" that the spike was not under that cup?
Even though the Scorpion would not cause any real harm other than the equivelant of a pin prick on the palm, I don't smash my hand down unless I have a "signal" (which I get 100% of the time) I believe with Spike it's difficult to script something when the object you're using for the effect has little real world relevance. To refer back to the original topic of the post, I came up with Scorpion because I felt this type of effect needed a reason to perform, other than "just using your "powers" to avoid injury". So I designed "reason" and "purpose" into the scripting to justify, not only taking the chance, but why, you are "risking" injury. So Simon, if a good "script" combined with a "danger" effect is what you want, I would take a look at Scorpion. When I open the box to reveal what's inside..people jump away! I don't mean this post to come across as an ad for Scorp. I feel my post is completely revelant to Simons original question. RR |
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James Warren Loyal user 241 Posts |
"In my mind the only way that something like this would NOT seem like a trick, would be to let the audience choose which cups to smash, one at a time, (assuming they don’t know where the spike is)."
____________________________________________________________________________ Boy, Steve, I really have to disagree with that. In fact I would say just the opposite. The way you suggest presenting the effect is exactly how so many magicians present it. It is precisely having randomly chosen audience members choose which cups you are going to smash that makes the whole thing seem like a trick! It has to be a trick. Do we really believe that an audience is going to buy into the premise that these people are are exercising some kind of mysterious intuition or clairvoyance in guessing the cups they tell you to smash? I'm sorry, but I think that strains credibility for most people. It has the "feel" of a magic trick. ("Jerry, pick a cup. Number 1? Fine. SMASH. Now you, Susan, pick a cup. No. 4? Okay. SMASH. Now Bob, pick a cup. Number 1? Okay. SMASH. Voila, amazingly you all picked the empty bags! You must all be psychic!) And it's all so easy -- these people don't even have to strain their brains to discern the correct bags, they just guess a bag and you smash it. Feels totally like a trick. IMO, if you want the audience to believe this is for real, do it the way Joel Bauer does: the volunteer knows which bag has the spike, and that person's job is to lead you to it mentally -- something like a muscle reading premise in other words. Joel doesn't even claim to be reading that person's mind: he makes the more believable claim to be reading their body language and subtle impulses. |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-05-13 04:58, Rocketeer wrote: Hi, Just to make things clear: The idea I shared in the column (part of which is quoted above) actually belongs to Docc Hilford. Brad |
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chicane Elite user New Zealand 465 Posts |
I perform a version of Luke Jermay's "Dangerous Opener". There are only two bags and the spectator has a free choice of bag. I have a safety device that makes the chance of hurting myself impossible. PM if you want details, but first buy Luke's Coral Fang manuscript or book for the real info on a seemingly dangerous effect that is harmless to the performer.
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Brent Allan Elite user Chicago 415 Posts |
In my own opinion, Scott Alexander's "Shattered" or the Patrick Kuff's routine which is similar and can be found on his Mind Stunts DVD are the way to go with this. Not dissing the Scorpion, which I have heard great reviews of, but it just seems too proppy for my tastes. Break a bottle, put it under a bag, smash. The only danger to this routine is getting a paper cut from the paper bags.
I too developed a version of "Spiked" several years ago when this plot became popular. I performed it successfully about 8 times. The ninth time, I misread my markings and slammed my hand down on the bag that had the spike. Fortunately, my fingers were splayed apart, and the spike ended up going between my fingers. I was blindfolded, so the only way I knew I had screwed up was when I heard the audience shriek. Great drama, lousy resolution to the effect. I realized how close I came to seriously injuring myself that night, and I learned a valuable lesson. My health and well being is not worth sacrificing to give the audience a thrill. Now, even the things I do which appear dangerous are 100% safe. Some would argue that this is not the case, as I am also a fire-eater. But the dangers inherent in that are actually about the same as cooking on a barbecue. So, I do not consider that dangerous, and this is not the forum to debate that particular topic anyway. Whoever posted this was right when they said that the audience will assume it is a trick. I have been performing for 16 years, and I am pretty good at creating drama and tension in my shows. That being said, when I look back on my career, I can honestly say that I was never able to truly make the audience believe I was in danger. And I have not been able to figure out how to do so without there ACTUALLY being a very real danger. Thus, I don’t do that kind of stuff anymore. Even when I do “Velocity”, the paintball bullet catch, I joke that the danger is this could hurt like hell, but most likely would not kill me. The only time I have ever seen the level of drama necessary to really give the impression of real danger was Derren Brown’s “Russian Roulette” special a few years back. And, I am not Derren Brown.
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Roth Inner circle The 18 5090 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-05-14 11:23, Brent Allan wrote: Hi Brent, I totally respect your opinion on the Scorpion but there are a couple of things I'd like to clarify. The Scorpion is a prop (of course) that is actually an exact replica of a Ninja weapon used in 16th century Japan. There is a wonderful storyline and patter about this weapon, that completely justifies why you are doing this routine to begin with. The storyline about the "Makibishi" (scorpion) is a big part of the mystique of the presentation that makes it so entertaining. The Scorp gimmick is 100% examinable by the spec (incouraged) and there is no set-up. It's always ready to go. It can be carried in your pocket and used for table hopping with ease. At $65.00 compared to $250.00 for shattered, it's priced for someone that may not need a stage version of this type effect. For me it all boils down to "why" are you doing an effect. Is there purpose? Is there a reason for the prop being used? Scorpion has all the elements of a "danger" effect, and a real world explanation as to why you are performing with it. Yes it is a prop, but the story that comes with it completely justifies it's use. Rick |
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FlippingWonderful Regular user 122 Posts |
Judging by comments some of you may not go with this, but this is how it should be done... It makes it more than a trick as the "volunteer" is doing the work...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqXhqa-utnk |
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Brent Allan Elite user Chicago 415 Posts |
Just my opinion, but any performer who puts a spectator in danger like that or even causes them to THINK they are in danger should never be allowed in a performance situation ever again.
As for the Scorpion, it has received rave reviews and I encourage everyone to give it a fair look. I myself own several Outlaw products. It is just not something that fits my character or something I could see me carrying. This is not a reflection upon the prop itself, but rather its compatibility with my stage persona and my personal performance criteria.
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James Warren Loyal user 241 Posts |
I agree with Brent. The presentation certainly does fit our modern cultural proclivity for getting off on watching people experience emotional difficulty (reality TV and talk shows). Rachel especially was obviously NOT enjoying this experience, and I'm happy to say that I didn't enjoy watching her squirm.
The idea that "it makes it more than a trick as the volunteer is doing all the work" is, to my mind, the exact opposite of the truth. Work? What "work?" I didn't see any "process" in this routine at all. When Deren Brown first makes a spectator relax, and does some kind of induction technique to seemingly put them in another space, and then leads them through some process wherein they are able to read his mind or send him a thought, that "feels" real. But when you simply tell a spectator to choose a cup, and the spectator has had no preparation, is obviously just guessing, and is repeatedly saying "I have no idea which cup the spike is under," and yet they end up guessing the right cup three times in a row -- I'm sorry, but I don't think anybody is going to be convinced that the spectator did some extraordinary mental work. They're going to come away saying "How'd he do that?" "He" meaning the "magician." Because they're going to think it was some kind of trick. Doing the routine this way actually makes it look like a trick in my opinion. |
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FlippingWonderful Regular user 122 Posts |
I did say some of you wouldn't like it, but I think it has a lot more entertainment factor over the original spikle handling. And I'm an entertainer at the end of the day.
As for the fact the layman thinks its a trick; well I believe anytime you use a non-organic prop in a routine this will happen to some degree. |
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themindreader Loyal user 254 Posts |
Bugger. If only I'd used a spectators hand instead.
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James Warren Loyal user 241 Posts |
"I believe anytime you use a non-organic prop in a routine this will happen to some degree."
__________________________________________________________________________ I think that's probably true. However, in the case of Keith Barry's performance, I really don't think it's the spike that creates the feeling of "trick" so much as the way in which the spectators simply make guesses that somehow turn out to be correct. People have to figure that the performer had some sly way of getting it to turn out the right way. I've seen several youtube magicians doing variations of this routine, and they all do it the same way: having the spectator make the choices, while it's obvious that the spectator is simply guessing. If you want to do it that way, at least create some kind of context within which it feels like you are helping the spectator access some intuitive, subconscious part of her brain. When it's played like a mere guessing game, it looks like a trick. Of course, it may not be your goal to create some level of credibility; you may just want to entertain, period. But if you want to be perceived as a mentalist rather than a magician, then I believe you have to build in some kind of process that lends a level of credibility to what is going on: at least enough to create some doubt in the spectators' minds as to whether what they are seeing is a mere trick, or some rarely tapped power of the mind. Regarding props, the shattered bottle idea is organic. Another idea is one Jonathan Pendragon shared in a lecture: use one of those thin metal spikes that secretaries use in offices to skewer phone messages. His is gimmicked so that it appears real at first, but you render it harmless. PM me if you want details. |
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Magical Dimensions Inner circle 5001 Posts |
What is the real purpose of doing this effect? Is it just a guy thing? You know, look at me I am a dangerous SOB! Danger, Danger Will Robertson…. LOL
Is this the poor mans version of a dangerous stage illusion that the close up guy CAN AFFORD? What is the motivation behind it? “Look at me…I will slam my hand down and smash the cups. No other reason then to try and look really cool” There are so many better effects out there to impress the ladies then this. I never did like this effect because to me, it is just dumb as if something a 14 year-old kid would do to impress his buddies or a girl. Now the only thing of this nature that I thought was entertaining was Scorpion. The Scorpion presentation of a Ninja weapon makes it a much better routine then, “Duuuh…LOOOOK…Duuuuh…I have three cups and one big spike…Duuuuh….I will cover the spike and place the other two cups next to it…Duuuuuh….I will look away and you mixed them…..Duuuuh….OK?….Watch me find the spike…..SLAM!….OH SHIP! *&%^$%$#(&(&$$&_)+__+%#@@%! What a NERD effect! This spike routine should come with a pocket protector and eyeglasses with white tape. |
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Jerome Finley V.I.P. SLC 3419 Posts |
The plot sickens me. I will continue to bash this particular effect . . .
Roth, If I ever were to persue this plot, I would definitely only consider the "Scorpion". It seems like you have solved some of the problems with presentation, safety, justification for the prop, etc. That's wonderful, again, yours is the only one I would use. Doug Higley's "Traps a Mental-Monte" is also very good, very strong and 100% safe!!! However, as great as the routine is, and I love Higley as a creator, I no longer use the routine. When I did (and I did there for awhile), the reactions were strong enough, but its hard to keep people watching when they think you might lose a hand! In the end, the audience is very concerned for the safety of the performer, and most could not believe I would even TRY such a stunt. I sided with my audience and put the effect away. Best, Jerome
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chichi711 Inner circle 5810 Posts |
I agree with Jerome here. I honestly cant watch people do a true spike smash. I don't care if they "win" "succeed" whatever. I don't like to see people in a lot of pain. What is the fun in it? If I were to do this effect it would be scorpion or nothing.
Having said that why do so many people love it? Is this a show stopper? After you are done with your show is this the ONE effect everyone talks about? What is the obsession with it? |
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