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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts |
How abotu the frickin crimpin gripin lol sorry I'm easily amused
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Rik Chew Special user 538 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-09 14:08, Joshua Barrett wrote: It's finger lickin good! Im also easily amused |
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Chad Barnard Special user Mt. Airy, NC 763 Posts |
I know that Vinny is gearing up a Crimp DVD and a lot of the applications will be revealed and I can't wait. He says that he has a retention vanish and he can name it what he wants, he came up with it. That's where I think the term "Crimp" would be applicable. Like the "Crimp Retention" or "Crimp Retention Vanish" or whatever Vinny decides to call it.
When it's just the concealment itself I think it would make more sense to call it the "Frickell Grip", due to the reasons already stated. |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9519 Posts |
And just to kick it up a notch, there's also a new "Crimp Switch" that is pretty neat and I use it now in my new "Losing Face" effect, thanks to my buddy "The King of Scotland" - Kyf, who creatively tuned my eye more specifically to a the "powerful" Crimp Change usage in performing Eric Jones' Tai Chi Penetration he recognized. And so, YES...There is now a neat Karate Coin version exacted quite beautifully by the Crimp, a most specific usage at that. I've been blowing people away with it all day here at work and it's a very effective/comfortable/streamline effect in the KC genre...And so it lives from this day forward as another sparkling example of the flexibility of the Godfather's Crimp Technique, and not to mention the overall versatility of the Crimp Change itself.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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Kyf Loyal user UK, England (but Scottish by birth) 265 Posts |
Hi MB,
Thanks for the mention - I start in no-where palm when handing out the ungaffed coin. Open fingers, open palm, they never suspect a switch as it's completely in their face. People I've shown this too spend simply ages looking for a mechanism - never suspecting the "crimp switch" the heat is always on the ungaffed coin. I think I need to buy a dozen or so as I'm sure handing out the ungaffed coin would make a great gift and drive people crazy trying to replicate the effect. Like I said "Priceless" - I've never seen such a strong reaction to the karate coin pentration. They look for a gimmick in the wrong place....fantastic in-built mis-direction. Of course this is all based on the notes from Eric's Tai Chi Penetration - using the specific coin and modification he mentions in the Rick Johnson "Too Perfect Theory". All I did was to put the two together as it makes the effect more plausable. The coin never leaves sight - it's totally in their face thanks to your "crimp change".... All the best, Kyf
"I put tape on the mirrors in my house so I don't accidentally walk through into another dimension." Steve Wright
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
Wow, I just read through this...
I think it is helpful to establish some terms: Frickell palm or generically thumb crotch grip is just a concealment. The DeManche change switches a coin held visibly at the fingertips for one that is in fingerpalm. The Frickell palm is only used momentarily to deposit the visible coin out of sight as the fingerpalmed coin is pushed into view. As the fingerpalmed coin is pushed into view, the bottom two fingers reach back and retrieve the coin held in Frickell grip. As this happens, the coin going from Frickell grip to fingerpalm flips over as the fingers grab it and pull it into fingerpalm. The DeManche change is not limited to being done secretly. It can be done right out in the open as a visual change. I have seen people use this as a fingertip transposition: flip a Copper/Silver coin over in the left hand, do the DeManche change in the right hand copper for silver. You just need a quick shake of the wrist to hide the dirty work. It looks good. Vinny's Crimp Change is not the DeManche change. Whereas the DeManche change only uses the Frickell grip as a quick transitional position and the fingerpalm is the main concealment, Vinny's is pretty much the anti-DeManche change. Vinny uses the fingerpalm as a quick transitional position, and the Frickell grip is the main concealment. I must confess that I don't know the mechanics behind MB's Crimp Change, I assume it was similar in mechanics to Vinny's due to the name. Whatever the mechanics he is using, it looks very nice. However, if the coins are being switched from fingerpalm to fingerpalm just using the Frickell grip as a transition, its a DeManche change, regardless if it is done visibly or hidden. A visible DeManche change is not something new. Vinny's crimp change I have not seen anyone do before, so to the best of my knowledge it is new. |
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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts |
Your description of the DeManche change matches mb's change
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MickeyPainless Inner circle California 6065 Posts |
WOW! Although this is all quite over my head at this point I find it fascinating and it also leads me to stand corrected and retract my statement about "not giving a rip about where or how it came about etc".
Thanks for the lessons I learn here! Mick |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9519 Posts |
Not quite Josh (and I've been telling you that). But before you simply buy the first shiny car you like here, here's another lot to consider...or what they would call another "well-educated" take on it as it were.
Oh and there's always more to learn Mick...You say you hunger now for knowledge...Well here it is, eat it! "The Crimp Change has some similarities with the DeManche change, but let me go on record as stating they are NOT the same and IMO the Crimp Change is a superior move - More versatile and more deceptive. There is RARELY an entirely new concept in magic, particularly when it comes to sleight of hand with ungaffed objects. "new" moves are developed as people play around with existing moves, find weaknesses in them and go about seeking to improve them. Sometimes the discovery is an accident, and sometimes it is the result of weeks, months, and years of thought and study. Even much of the work of the great Jerry Andrus, who learned magic in seclusion and never read magic books, has similarities to sleights and moves that existed previously or concurrently. If the Crimp Change were nothing more then the DeManche change with a new name, people "in the know" would not be receiving it so enthusiastically. It is definitely similar, but it is also definitely different enough to warrant being put on the market, and it is a bargain!" -Scott F. Guinn
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts |
Ok that's fine. but again I'm asking what those differences are. if you wish to pm me that's fine. iv bought your download so there is no risk of exposure of your move.
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Curtis Kam V.I.P. same as you, plus 3 and enough to make 3498 Posts |
Thank you Dan, for some much-needed clarification. To which I should add:
"The DeManche change, however, is a special move ideal for the purpose. [of switching coins] It is made with one hand, the two coins cannot possibly talk, and the palm may be seen empty almost throughout. It can even be used as a visible change." -- Henry Hay, the Amateur Magician's Handbook, third ed. 1950. The Demanche Change itself had first been published in 1911, and despite the lack of video clips showing it, magicians were probably working with the move between 1911 and 1950. So it's fair to say that the idea of showing the palm during the change, and using the move as a visible change have been widely known (AMH was a very popular book) for at least the last 57 years. And from the back of that book: "Frikell, Wiljalba (1818-1903). German conjuror, one of the first to work in evening clothes instead of flowing robes. He cleaned up his stage so that it looked like a drawing room of the period, and relied upon skill, not on bulky apparatus." Hmm, and all this time you thought it was Robert-Houdin. I think it's likely that this is the "Elder Frickell" that Lewis speaks of. I wonder what there is in print about Herr Frickell's routines? Perhaps he was renowned for his performance of a visible change of one coin to another. There may be a wealth of knowledge waiting to be rediscovered. But you have to willing to read. And you have to know what words OTHER PEOPLE use to describe what you're looking for.
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
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Mb217 Inner circle 9519 Posts |
Thanks Doc,
"Mb, nice stuff - you fooled me badly. It looks like magic, and I love watching magic." -Dr. Michael Rubinstein *Hey Kyf, that Einstein was truly right about those "Great Spirits," wasn't he?
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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Chad Barnard Special user Mt. Airy, NC 763 Posts |
It is funny how you keep showing that quote and even put it on Vinny's website. But when I talked to Mr. Rubinstein it was the first he had ever heard that you were using his quote to sell your stuff. That's shady man. Was he talking about your performance or handling? I talked to him and he didn't seem to know your handling.
Since the demanche change and the crimp change are so different then my listing some characteristics of the demanche change, as stated above won't be giving away your handling. * The palm can be seem mostly throughout * The change was a visible one that was done in full audience view. * The demanche handling was fingerpalm, Frickell (Crimp), fingerpalm. So how is the Crimp Change different? I'm bummed. As a customer I feel ripped off. At first when I talked to you guys about it being very similar to the One-Hand Switch in Bobo's you gave me the reasons why it was different. It made sense and I was satisfied. Now that all of this original source material came to light you need some more ways that it's different. People used to crucify Penguin and Magic Makers for this kind of stuff. Rannie, man, after all of this are you still saying that there is a noticeable difference. Isn't this what you rail against the coin gods for? Don't say level the playing field. Don't become the thing you hate. Scott what about you? Maybe you guys saw someone in a video or read a book where someone was doing their variation/handling of a demanche change. Or maybe they were doing what they saw their mentor doing and he did it different. Scott after seeing quotes from the original source material are you still saying there is that big of a difference? Please pm me I've bought the effect so can discuss it. In my opinion this just taints the good name of "The Family". |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9519 Posts |
"Unfortunately in a lot of artistic areas those who "run" things write the history..."
Yeah, you were very right about that pod and remember as you have also said here, "Don't become the thing you hate." doo-daa, doo-daa...
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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Chad Barnard Special user Mt. Airy, NC 763 Posts |
Again out of context quotes and evading the questions presented. How does my quote about people in power lying make sense in this context. So you're justifying thievery because everyone else does. Really?
So you're calling Curtis Kam and Dan Watkins liars? You're saying that they are lying about what the above sources say? Man that's bold. If that's not what you meant, maybe you should speak plainly and not in code. It doesn't fit you. Hopefully you're not saying that the people who wrote those books, years before you were born, lied about what a Demanche change was to rob you of your creation? Man I've seen that paranoia on here before. Like that code? Guys don't make the mistake and buy this, like I did, practice the Demanche change as described above and watch MB's demo and see if you aren't doing the same thing. Anyone else, am I out of line? Am I totally misunderstanding this? I pmed Scott, hopefully he post on here. Anyone else that's bought this, like me, doesn't this seem way more than similar? I not talking about the blow vanish...just the crimp change. MB. Name a big name you respect the opinion of besides those that have weighed in so far. I'll buy the effect for them and let them have the last word. I'm thinking someone like Richard Kaufman. Any names you have that you would like me to buy this for? |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9519 Posts |
There's the goes the neighborhood...:/
Pod, nothing "shady" about me man, I call it like it is and as you said before you decided to forsake your happiness with a great move and just melt down, "bum" yourself out about something you said like; "Hey, I love the change and vanish. Like I said on the forum it's a great effect...Thanks again for sharing this great move with the magic community." Nothing "code" about that, and your manipulations to start trouble here are of your own hand, as you were exactly referring to "people in power," as you say. Hey are you saying that Scott Guinn and Dr. Rubinstein are lying? Why are you even using words like shady, liar, thievery? Your intent here is clearly low-brow and seemingly emotionally disturbed. So now you trash the thing you absolutely said you "loved." You don't exactly know what you're talking about do you? So, now you're trapped loving a woman you can't stand? C'mon, wake up man! But what you do know is that you have most certainly not been "ripped off." That's a bit over the top, isn't it, even for a professed "coin noob" like you. Hopefully you haven't been scarred for life behind all this, but like it or not you will always have the Crimp Change at your fingertips and it was there first, and it was from me and you're most welcome, in spite of yourself. And oh, I don't need you to buy anything for anybody. You bought it for yourself and "love" it. That's enough for me. I respect that.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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Chad Barnard Special user Mt. Airy, NC 763 Posts |
Quotes above were made before I found out you stole it.
Did you not read what I said about Rubinstein's comments? By your comments it doesn't seem so. I have pmed Scott and asked him to look over the stuff that Curtis and Dan brought to light and repost here. I'm not calling him a liar. I'm interested in what he says. Again you didn't address any of the points I brought up. Evasion of the problems and attacking on a different front. Man you should be a politician. Unlike you, it seems, I'm constantly learning and my opinions change, sometimes daily, as new information is gathered. Are you that pedantic? You can probably pull quotes from me when I was 18 and they still would probably be different. I've lived I've learned. Dispute anything I've said above. C'mon stick to the issues at hand. I've got some quotes from you, that I hope someone will let me post because you totally expose your position in the quote. I'll have to wait until I get the go ahead from them. |
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4665 Posts |
OK Marion, let's talk for a minute. In my earlier post, I did NOT talk about your move at all! I discussed the POSITION of the coin in what has been descirbed here as the crimp palm. I stated that the correct name should be used for historical accuracy. I don't care if the TECHNIQUES used with this position are called crimp technique, as long as the POSITION is named correctly. Also, I did write that quote or something like that when I saw the video clip of what you are calling the Crimp change. However, I wrote you a PM stating that it looked to me like you were doing the Demanche Change. I also wrote you a reference from David Roth that stated that the Demanche change can be used as a visual change, since you felt that no one was doing that visually. As I have not seen the mechanics of your move, I will withold judgement on whether it is the Demanche change, or a variation. However, if done well, the demanche change can look like that as well. And all I said in my post was that it looked like real magic. I did not say that I thought the move was original. I was complimenting you on your ability, Marion, and did not expect you to use my quote to sell your download. If your technique does nothing more than make the move more efficient,but uses the same positions, then it should be called a variation of the Demanche change, unless the position of the coins are very different. But as I said, I will withold judgement until I am shown the difference between the moves.
Now, I can give Jonathan a reference, again from Roth (who is much more well read than I am), to Modern Magic (1876), which shows a woodcut of the position, and stated that it is a favorite of the elder Frikell. The book describes how to get into this position, and how to use it as a pass. I wrote a letter to Vinnie explaining that I in no way was dissing his techniques, I just felt that the position of the coin should be named appropriately, not his technique (of which I am not privvy to, I only saw a video of Vinnie putting the coins into the position as a click pass. As I have not read the above citation, I can not tell if the technique is original or the same. That would be for the people who use this technique to research. I also discussed how the Morrit grip has been incorrectly called the Apollo palm, and the J W Grip was inaccurately called the Fitch palm. We need to make an effort to keep the historical record straight, in order to honor our past and to provide consistency in our literature. Now if your technique is original, great. If not, it should be cited as such. I hope that is clear. PS - I might add that no one here wants to hurt anyone, or make someone look bad. They just want to set the record straight hstorically.
S.E.M. (The Sun, the Moon, and the Earth) is a sun and moon routine unlike any other. Limited to 100 sets, here is the promo:
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rannie Inner circle 4375 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-09 22:34, podcastrant wrote: Hey.......That is out of line kid! I never sent you my handling of what Vinny and I call the Crimp Change! There is absolutely no basis for you to say there is no difference. DO NOT tell me things you are not sure of. You have not been around to know what I hate and why I do. You are clueless about what its really like out there. Be careful . For your satisfaction .....I will call Vinny long distance and have your money returned Podcastrant. You just don't go on telling people to stop buying because of your issues with something you did like but did not agree with. I'm done here unless you want more. Get your facts man! All the facts are not in books. There are some facts you need to know sauch as the real work on the unpublished and unreleased Crimp Change we fondly refer to. For the record... The "Whatever name you want and feel good about" change AKA The original crimp change is used not only for a color change but as a coin production from 1 to 2 or 2 to 1. Something that cannot be done using the demanche . Its that "something" that only Vinny knows. I did show MB...I hope he remembers it. Yup...these are the only ones who know. So until you have seen what I'M talking about....you have no right to say that ITS neither original, or unoriginal. I can't become what I hate....I'm a brown coinman who just love magic. Rannie
"If you can't teach an old dog new tricks, trick the old dog to learn."
-Rannie Raymundo- aka The Boss aka The Manila Enforcer www.rannieraymundo.com www.tapm.proboards80.net |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9519 Posts |
Pod, To assume that Scott doesn't know about the info put forth by Dan and Curtis is a bit presumptuous, don't you think. What are they, the only ones that can read, research, understand here. Everyone else's ID card must be checked, especially if they don't agree with you or them. That's quite arrogant of you and insulting to Scott. So, if he stands by his original post, he's part of the rat pack too???
And I addressed all of your points, answered every question you asked of me. You just don't like my answers. And why would I pull quotes from you when you were 18, when you can't get things right at whatever age your at right now, without name calling and other sophmoric attacks. That's very childish pod. So now you lay-in-wait to pounce, to further distort and wreak havoc in our house. My intent on all of this was and is nothing but honest. With all of what has been said here, I agree with Scott about the Crimp Change. I think what I presented is different and I have explained why in private and in forum to you and plenty others, big and small. I have nothing to hide. And you...well you have added an amazing new move to your repetoire that you will do forever, and love it always because it's just that good, as you've pretty much said.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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